"Blacks are poor tippers"... racism?

Great Debates
21

[QUOTE=MaxTheVool]
There are various shades from “blacks are generally worse tippers… thus, I SUSPECT this black guy I’m delivering to is a bad tipper” to “thus, I ASSUME” to “thus, I KNOW”.

In any case, the important question for me is usually not what someone thinks or assumes, but what they do. If some guy is in charge of hiring for a math-oriented position, and believes that women are bad at math, it’s possible that he still gives each candidate the same object math test, and still hires the people who score about 90%. Maybe every time he hires a woman he thinks “wow, it’s amazing that a broad is as good at math as she is… she must be the exception that proves the rule or something”, but it’s possible that he’s still fair about it. However, I don’t see how anything of that sort applies to a pizza deliverer, unless he refuses to deliver to customers named “DeShaun”, or something of that sort.

However, all that said, making negative race-based generalizations, even very minor ones, seems to me to be absolutely positively clearly racism, albeit potentially minor and fairly harmless.
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Yeah, I’d definitly agree that this falls into the “who gives a shit?” category of racist beliefs. He’s not hurting anyone or treating them any differently, so it’s not at all worth making a big thing about it.

22

[QUOTE=MaxTheVool]
There are various shades from “blacks are generally worse tippers… thus, I SUSPECT this black guy I’m delivering to is a bad tipper” to “thus, I ASSUME” to “thus, I KNOW”.

In any case, the important question for me is usually not what someone thinks or assumes, but what they do. If some guy is in charge of hiring for a math-oriented position, and believes that women are bad at math, it’s possible that he still gives each candidate the same object math test, and still hires the people who score about 90%. Maybe every time he hires a woman he thinks “wow, it’s amazing that a broad is as good at math as she is… she must be the exception that proves the rule or something”, but it’s possible that he’s still fair about it. However, I don’t see how anything of that sort applies to a pizza deliverer, unless he refuses to deliver to customers named “DeShaun”, or something of that sort.

However, all that said, making negative race-based generalizations, even very minor ones, seems to me to be absolutely positively clearly racism, albeit potentially minor and fairly harmless.
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I guess on the Mega Spectrum of Racism, all race-based generalizations (even good ones) have a place. But I think their position is determined by the harshness of the generalization and its departure from reality.

“Black people are more likely to be poor tippers than white people.” Perhaps this is true. Now, maybe it takes a bit of a racist to be able to see such a pattern (since a truly color-blind person wouldn’t be able to see it), but if it’s true, it can’t be–IMHO–racist. I would wager it doesn’t fall on the Mega Spectrum of Racism, but I’m sure SOMEONE would put it there.

“Black people are bad tippers.” Yeah, there’s a tinge of racial stickiness in that remark. There are no qualifiers and all black people are lumped together. It leaves no room for exceptions or explanations. A thought like this is more likely to foster prejudiced behavior. So yeah, it falls on the Mega Spectrum. It falls on the low end, but it’s there.

“Blacks are horrible, no-good people!” We’ve moved up several rungs from the initial observation. Definitely racism.

If you were to confront your friend about his experiences, I don’t think it would be helpful to call his thinking “racist”, if only because it automatically puts people on the defense. But if you think it’s racist, there’s no rule that says you’re wrong.

23

[QUOTE=x-ray vision]
I’m not ignoring what it says. The first definition says, “and that a particular race is superior to others”. Using the second definition by itself and saying that “stereotyping” is merely a synonym of “racism”, doesn’t fit with the other definitions.
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You do understand that the different definitions of a given word are meant to be taken seperately, right? Racism can mean either “The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others,” or “Discrimination or prejudice based on race.” It does not necessarily have to mean both things at the same time. If someone’s actions or behavior matches the second definition of the word, then the word is applicable to him, even if his actions do not match the first definition of the word.

Is stereotyping ever racist, in your view, or are they always and forever two entirely seperate things?

24

[QUOTE=MaxTheVool]

However, all that said, making negative race-based generalizations, even very minor ones, seems to me to be absolutely positively clearly racism, albeit potentially minor and fairly harmless.
[/QUOTE]

What about this related senario? I teach English at a public high school. We have an extremely diverse student body, and a signifigant element of that is African Immigrants. Now then, after five years I have noticed a really strong pattern of behavior among African kids, especially east African kids, and especially east African girls–it’s a certain “spaciness”, a tendency not to “get” instructions the first time they are given, to not understand what is important and what is not in a given assignment. There is also a decided aversion to admitting a lack of understanding–whatever I say, it’s nod and smile, nod and smile. I am convinced there is some sort of cultural thing playing out here, and strongly suspect it has to do with how either children/adult or student/teacher interaction is different in different communities, because I don’t see this same spaciness when the kids are all interacting together.

So I look for this “spaciness” in African kids, especially east African girls. And when I see it (and I am aware that I am more apt to see it when I am looking for it, becoming a self-fufilling prophecy) and I explain things differently with these kids. In one-on-one tutoring, I make eye contact with them more when explaining steps, and I make them start assignments right there so that I can see that they do understand. For kids like this, I am also more likely to cut them slack when they don’t follow instructions on stuff, if it’s not too central to the purpose of the assignment as a whole.

I am very, very uncomfortable with this–it makes me feel racist. But if I didn’t do it, I’d feel like a bad teacher for not doing what seems best for the kid in front of me–even if “what seems best” seems to fit an ethnic pattern. It drives me crazy.

25

[QUOTE=Miller]
You do understand that the different definitions of a given word are meant to be taken seperately, right?
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Yes, I understand, thanks. However, Using one defintion in one dictionary, that doesn’t jibe with the others, to conclude that someone is “racist” is handpicking to suit one’s needs and not intellectually honest in my book.

[QUOTE=Miller]

Is stereotyping ever racist, in your view, or are they always and forever two entirely seperate things?
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They are two seperate things. Racism is about hatred and/or the belief that one race is superior or inferior to another. Stereotyping isn’t about hate or superiority; it’s merely classifying based on knowledge.

If I were a soccer coach and I had to draft a player, and the only information I had was that Player A is from Brazil and Player B is from the United States, would I be racist for choosing Player A?

I don’t think it would be fair to say that I would be. Of course the American could be from a whole host of races (as could the Brazilian), but if I’m aware that Brazil takes soccer much more seriously than the U.S., that many more Brazilians are interested in soccer than Americans, making it much more competitive and harder to be on a draft list, etc., I’m not racist for picking the Brazilian. Whether it be a fair way to choose or not, I don’t think I’d be guilty of anything more than stereotyping.

26

[QUOTE=Miller]
Gotta disagree with you there, x-ray. Look at the second definition you provided for racism: “Discrimination or prejudice based on race.”

If the OP’s friend approaches a customer and thinks, “It’s a black guy. I’m going to get stiffed on the tip,” then he has just pre-judged that person. This is prejudice. He has based his pre-judgement on the color of the person’s skin. That makes it racial prejudice. Therefore, his friend is, in some small measure, racist.
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Does not sat discrimination based on tipping.

27

[QUOTE=Miller]
To follow up on Contrapuntal, if he assumes a specific, individual black person is a bad tipper because any number of previous black people have tipped poorly, that would be a racist attitude. He’s judging a person’s behavior by the color of his skin. Even if blacks as a group tend to tip poorly, there are always individuals in any group that buck the trend. Which is why everyone should be treated as individuals first, and members of their respective demographics second.
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So if someone, say a black leader like Jesse Jackson, was fearfull of a black person walking behind him he would be:

a - stereotyping people
b - reacting to past experience

28

[QUOTE=Magiver]
So if someone, say a black leader like Jesse Jackson, was fearfull of a black person walking behind him he would be:

a - stereotyping people
b - reacting to past experience
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Why couldn’t it be both?

I would be scared of a man walking behind me on a dark street. My fear is based on knowledge that a random man is X times more likely to be dangerous than a random woman. It’s also based on the stereotype of men being stronger, more violent, and more criminal then women.

Because I would change my behavior (by crossing the street, waiting for the man to pass me, etc.), I would actually be acting out my prejudice. Am I sexist? Is this a good analogy to racial discrimination? I don’t know how to address these questions. But I don’t think yours has necessarily one answer.

29

[QUOTE=x-ray vision]
Yes, I understand, thanks. However, Using one defintion in one dictionary, that doesn’t jibe with the others, to conclude that someone is “racist” is handpicking to suit one’s needs and not intellectually honest in my book.
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How many dictionaries does that definition have to appear in before you accept it? And why is the definition I want to use unacceptable, but the definition you want to use hunky-dory? How can one determine which dictionary definitions are “real” and which are not?

So a stereotype can never be racist in nature?

Since you have no way of knowing the races of the players in question, no, you would not be racist for choosing the Brazilian player.

30

[QUOTE=monstro]
Why couldn’t it be both?

I would be scared of a man walking behind me on a dark street. My fear is based on knowledge that a random man is X times more likely to be dangerous than a random woman. It’s also based on the stereotype of men being stronger, more violent, and more criminal then women.

Because I would change my behavior (by crossing the street, waiting for the man to pass me, etc.), I would actually be acting out my prejudice. Am I sexist? Is this a good analogy to racial discrimination? I don’t know how to address these questions. But I don’t think yours has necessarily one answer.
[/QUOTE]
You’re not sexist or anything elseist if you act on passed experiences. If you plot out all the murders in my city you will see a huge block of them in a concentrated area. You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to draw conclusions from the area or it’s occupants. I may not be able to pick out all murderers by looking at them but I can easily spot a gang-banging wanna-be and extrapolate what behavior to expect. If I saw Bill Cosby on the street and Snoop Dog I know which side of the street I want to be on in.

You cannot dismiss something because it’s not statistically pure or there are other possible events. In short, it can be both. You should be aware of both. In the situation at hand, it is noticeable to a lot of waitresses that black people don’t’ tip well. I happen to fall into a category known for good tipping. I also like to keep my side of that statistic up because I know I’m there for service. I can eat or drink at home for a hell of a lot less money so service is a large part of my dining experience.

31

That would be “past” experiences, not “passed”. I rely too heavily on spellcheck.

32

[QUOTE=Magiver]
You’re not sexist or anything elseist if you act on passed experiences.
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I don’t think that quite works as a blanket statement. If you’ve been mugged by a black man, and on that basis, immediately suspect any and all black men you meet of being criminals, no matter what circumstance you meet them under, then you’re definitly being racist, even though you’re acting on past experience. From your example, one could argue that if you assume that Bill Cosby is safer than Snoop Dogg, you’re not necessarily being racist, because you’re using other cues than just race to draw your assumptions. If you’re equally afraid of both Cosby and Snoop, because they’re both black, then you are being racist.

To use the OP’s situation to make my point, I would not say that passing up a job as a server in a predominently black area makes you racist. For whatever reason, blacks as a group tend to tip more poorly than other races, and it’s reasonable to expect that you will earn less money at that restuarant then you would at a similar establishment in a white neighborhood. However, if a server is working in a restaurant and refueses to wait on a black person’s table because blacks don’t tip well in general, that would be racist, because you’re assuming behavior about that specific individual just on the basis of his race.

33

[QUOTE=Miller]
How many dictionaries does that definition have to appear in before you accept it? And why is the definition I want to use unacceptable, but the definition you want to use hunky-dory? How can one determine which dictionary definitions are “real” and which are not?
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How many times do you want me to go over the same thing? If you want to believe that the standard definition of racism is no more serious than one who stereotypes, that’s your perogative. I think racism implies a much more serious charge, and I would think that that would be the same for most people, which is the most important factor when coming to a conclusion on word definitions.

[QUOTE=Miller]

So a stereotype can never be racist in nature?
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I don’t think so. But I haven’t gone over every possible scenario in my head.

34

[QUOTE=x-ray vision]
How many times do you want me to go over the same thing? If you want to believe that the standard definition of racism is no more serious than one who stereotypes, that’s your perogative. I think racism implies a much more serious charge, and I would think that that would be the same for most people, which is the most important factor when coming to a conclusion on word definitions.
[/quote]

The dictionary cites that you provided disagree with you. You should probably be more careful about what evidence you provide for your arguments in the future.

“Blacks are inferior to whites.” Stereotype, or racism?

“Asians can’t drive.” Stereotype, or racism?

“Gay are a danger to children.” Stereotype, or racism?

And how do you determine which is which?

35

[QUOTE=Miller]
To use the OP’s situation to make my point, I would not say that passing up a job as a server in a predominently black area makes you racist. For whatever reason, blacks as a group tend to tip more poorly than other races, and it’s reasonable to expect that you will earn less money at that restuarant then you would at a similar establishment in a white neighborhood.
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Wouldn’t that be racism, based on your belief that the following definition is a fine descriptor of racism?:

2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Are you saying it’s not racism because you’re not singling out one table with black customers, but coming to the conclusion that you will make less money over the long haul?

What if you have a choice between waiting on a table of blacks or whites?.

If you know that “blacks as a group tend to tip more poorly than other races”, are you racist for picking the white table and playing the odds?

36

[QUOTE=Miller]
I don’t think that quite works as a blanket statement. If you’ve been mugged by a black man, and on that basis, immediately suspect any and all black men you meet of being criminals, no matter what circumstance you meet them under, then you’re definitly being racist, even though you’re acting on past experience. From your example, one could argue that if you assume that Bill Cosby is safer than Snoop Dogg, you’re not necessarily being racist, because you’re using other cues than just race to draw your assumptions. If you’re equally afraid of both Cosby and Snoop, because they’re both black, then you are being racist.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, exactly, I should have made the point clearer. I used 2 black people to show that race wasn’t the trigger but didn’t qualify it. The human mind is capable of taking in a lot of subtle ques and I think it’s only sane to listen to the little voice in your head.

[QUOTE=Miller]
To use the OP’s situation to make my point, I would not say that passing up a job as a server in a predominently black area makes you racist. For whatever reason, blacks as a group tend to tip more poorly than other races, and it’s reasonable to expect that you will earn less money at that restuarant then you would at a similar establishment in a white neighborhood. However, if a server is working in a restaurant and refueses to wait on a black person’s table because blacks don’t tip well in general, that would be racist, because you’re assuming behavior about that specific individual just on the basis of his race.
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Agreed

37

[QUOTE=Manda JO]
I am very, very uncomfortable with this–it makes me feel racist. But if I didn’t do it, I’d feel like a bad teacher for not doing what seems best for the kid in front of me–even if “what seems best” seems to fit an ethnic pattern. It drives me crazy.
[/QUOTE]
Why would that be racist? You are tailoring your teaching methods to fit the needs of the student. If you did it for all female African immigrants, even if they did not exhibit the “spacey” behavior, that would be different. That’s not what you do, is it? It is very possible that what you are seeing is a cultural behavior, rather than a racial one.

38

[QUOTE=Magiver]
Yes, exactly, I should have made the point clearer. I used 2 black people to show that race wasn’t the trigger but didn’t qualify it. The human mind is capable of taking in a lot of subtle ques and I think it’s only sane to listen to the little voice in your head.
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I think you’re wrong to assume that just because a black person is making assumptions about another black person, then he can’t be making a racist assumption. Membership in a race doesn’t make one immune from the type of mental pitfalls that members outside of the race are vunerable to. It’s usually called self-hatred, when it’s in its most extreme forms.

39

I’d say that while it’s somewhat racist, it’s probably not racist in a harmful manner. Now if he gave black people poor service because he assumed they would tip poorly, I’d think that was harmfully racist. Otherwise, if the guy’s opinons are wrong, they’re wrong, and they’re not hurting anybody, so why bother trying to correct them?

I should also point out that when I delivered pizzas my area included both a low-income black neighborhood and a mainly white trailer park. The residents of the trailer park were usually fairly generous tippers (more generous than they should have been, in my opinion). The people in the black neighborhood usually weren’t, or at least I don’t ever remember getting a tip fropm that neighborhood that I felt I ought to return. Also, FWIW, the black neighborhood was pretty much tied with the upper-middle class white neighborhood in terms of poor tipping.

40

[QUOTE=Miller]
The dictionary cites that you provided disagree with you.
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No, they don’t. It was one definition that you want to hand pick and ignore all others when coming to a concensus on what “racism” entails.

[QUOTE=Miller]
You should probably be more careful about what evidence you provide for your arguments in the future.
[/quote]

Grow up.

[QUOTE=Miller]

“Blacks are inferior to whites.” Stereotype, or racism?

“Asians can’t drive.” Stereotype, or racism?

“Gay are a danger to children.” Stereotype, or racism?

And how do you determine which is which?
[/QUOTE]

I’d need more information. But what are you trying to prove? That stereotyping is the same as racism? That you can’t have one without the other? Or are you just trying to continue being unnecessarily arguementative?