Blade Runner---and other insanely over-rated movies ...

Yondan saw fit to blast me in the Pit for not revealing information about this movie that may spoil other people’s enjoyment of the film. Yondan I have addressed, but from now on I am dropping all caution in this thread, so be aware that this post contains spoilers (not just plot spoilers, but “enjoyment” spoilers too).

Bryan, I don’t think there ought to be a solution one way or another, but I think you are being a bit harsh on Blade Runner when you say that revisions to the original theatrical version were carried out for purely materialistic reasons.

I don’t think this is the case. The director’s cut was released in 1992, and the answer to the riddle popped up in July 2000, or about 8 years later. Blade Runner is one of those cult movies that just seem to get more popular with time, and by providing the answer to the famous riddle Scott may have actually dampened interest in the movie rather than stirred it up. It’s been a topic of debate for a long time, and now that there is less to debate, the film is probably poorer for it.

From what I remember from scattered sources there was quite a bit of in-fighting when producing Blade Runner. Scott had his own ideas to the effect that Deckard should be seen as a possible (but not confirmed) Replicant, a view that was supported by at least some versions of the script, but the studio changed the movie until executives were satisfied that it was sufficiently dumbed down for the average viewer to appreciate it (apparently, the average viewer still did not appreciate it, leading one to wonder what the studio heads were thinking of).

It was the studio that insisted on the atrocious voice-over narration and the controversial happy ending (Scott’s original version (and the Director’s Cut) ends with Deckard and Rachel stepping into the lift–the scene after that out in nature is actually taken from spare footage from The Shining). The clues to the Replicant mystery are there in the original film (minus the Unicorn), so I am prepared to accept that this is something Scott had in mind since the beginning, without necessarily leaning one way or another (consider what really made Stockton’s The Lady, or the Tiger famous).

I disagree with a couple of points. Firstly, I wouldn’t say that Scott’s reference to a “man who wanted to change his whole way of life” is revealing: had he said “a replicant” he would obviously have given the secret away, and since Deckard is assumed to be a man he is named a man. But the really important point for me is that Replicants ARE men and women, just artificial ones constructed with the physical and mental attributes required by their functions. Some of them are made physically powerful, while others are endowed with greater mental abilities.

Most of the replicants are indeed emotionally immature, but can we say the same for Roy Batty? Not only does he have a top physical rating of A like his three on-screen replicant companions, but he is the only one to also have a mental rating of A (Pris and Zhora are B-class, while Leon is a lowly C). If you have the Blade Runner DVD, you can easily see the serial tags of the renegade Replicants by hitting pause at the right time. The serial tags contain information about the particular Replicant model (model version, inception date, sex, physical/mental abilities).

I think that Rachel and Roy (both of whom are Replicants) exhibit fairly high levels of emotional sophistication, certainly more than the other Replicants, more than chief Bryant, possibly more than Deckard (who searches alot but comes up rather empty-handed), and more than Tyrell in spite of the latter’s fondness of diversions and amusement. Even J.F. Sebastian seems low on emotion, and he is one of the most promising characters in the film in that sense! Like the toys he designs, Sebastian may seem “cuddly” but in the end he is as emotionally stunted as the others.

No such assumptions are necessary. The quote from Scott you posted supports the view that Deckard may be a Replicant, but let’s leave Scott’s words aside for now. You say that all the elements that point to Deckard’s emotional state contradict that he is a Replicant. I doubt it, because (as in 2001: A Space Odyssey) emotion was deliberately kept to a minimum for this film. Deckard even says that his ex-wife used to refer to him as cold fish. Deckard is looking for something meaningful, I think that much is obvious. But he is an empty shell of a man nonetheless. It seems he has emotions, but they never progress beyond the elementary film noir prerequisites of being haunted and searching for something that eludes him (does he find it after Roy dies, I wonder?).

We can also consider that Deckard is, like Rachel, an experimental Replicant model with unique or rare characteristics. Deckard’s adventures chasing other replicants could be nothing but a live field-test (this could explain why Gaff always seems to be hovering over Deckard, and why Bryant is utterly disrespectful of him–Gaff is the real Blade Runner, and Bryant thinks of Deckard as a lowly Replicant).

Plus, consider this interview from Details magazinbe, October 1992, with Harrison Ford:

My emphasis.

Deckard may have a physical rating of B, which would explain why he is able to rough Rachel up (she would be a C) but cannot face a physical-A Replicant toe-to-toe. If Deckard is an experimental model I doubt that he would have been endowed with class-A physical strength and then allowed to run loose among the population. Too risky.

On the issue of physical strength, do consider that Deckard, after enduring grave beatings from Roy (and others!), is able to struggle up the slippery, wet side of a building with one hand, two broken fingers, and a heavy soaked trenchcoat. Not only does he survive the beatings (and we see no other humans who survive such an encounter, never mind more than one!) but he is able to perform that feat of strength and coordination in the rain, and this from a washed-out man who doesn’t sleep enough, drinks too much, and has collected more than his fair share of rough treatment in the immediate past! I think we can make the case that Deckard is a little bit tougher than human, although nowhere near as powerful as the class-A strength Replicants.

It’s not the same case, because the clues were all present in the original movie, minus the biggest clue of them all (which is why the Unicorn scene is extremely important even if the studio had it removed before original release).

Another very important clue is the identification gimmick Scott used to mark out Replicants for the audience, which is glowing eyes. All Replicants’ eyes glow at some point in the movie, even the eyes of the Replicant owl. Deckard’s eyes glow at one point during a scene with Rachel, when he tells her that he wouldn’t hunt her down if she ran away.

I think Han Solo was modified because shooting first is a bit too rogue-like for the delicate sensitivities of popular movies, and Lucas may have felt that, while shooting first worked fine in the famous Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom scene, it was probably not appropriate in this age of being proper. Likewise, the kiddie insult “penis breath” has been removed from the recent re-release of E.T., but these are not changes on the same scale as the Unicorn scene.

Great. So the director’s cut deliberately introduced more ambiguity into the plot. Thanks, Ridley. Thanks a lot. Most directors try to inject footage that enhances the story, not screw it up, but I guess thats why you’re king of the world. Jerk.

What is the point of Deckard being a replicant? To show that replicants can get depressed and burnt-out? Gee, that’s a major selling point! “Friends, are you tired of drinking alone? Do you need a companion that will listen to your views of how the world is falling apart and nothing’s worth a damn any more? Call Tyrell Replicants: When your misery demands company.”

There’s no indication that the unicorn image is based on some childhood “memory” of the Deckard replicant (like Rachel’s spider) so how does Ganz even know about it? Did he sneak up on Deckard with a USB cable and do some downloading? Risky move, considering how jumpy Deckard is. Maybe if Deckard’s apartment was decorated with unicorn imagery or some of the childhood photos contained unicorn symbols, we’d have something to go on.

Nah. If Deckard is a replicant, it creates a whack of new plot holes:
[ul][li]Why does the skin-job-hating Bryant like Deckard so much?[/li][li]If Deckard is a burnt-out replicant, why not just reprogram him? Why resort to veiled “little people” blackmail to get him to do the job he was built for?[/li][li]Why doesn’t Deckard have twice the strength and agility of a human (as described in the opening scroll text, not dropped for the DC, and not specifically limited to Nexus-6 models A, B or C)?[/li][li]If Rachel and Deckard are replicants, why would Gaff even consider not retiring them both? Letting one replicant go unretired might hurt Gaff’s career, but two?[/li][/ul]

I don’t have a problem with ambiguity, but the alternate interpretation Scott wants (Deckard is a replicant) is completely pointless. So machines can get depressed? WOW, major insight. I’d better be more attentive to the needs of my toaster.

Incidentally, chopping the “happy ending” (which to my mind wasn’t really all that “happy”, but just the normal optimism one hopes all humans can aspire to) makes no sense for the DC because Scott had no other ideas in mind, or at least none that he bothered to put on film. Deckard and Rachel get into an elevator. Movie ends. HUH?! Where the fuck are they going? How is that more “realistic” than showing us how she and Deckard left the city? Besides, the sunshine footage symbolized Deckard’s emotional rebirth (or reprogramming, if you stubbornly insist he must be a replicant).

Not all the original ending footage was swiped from The Shining, because I remember at least one shot of Sean Young with her hair frizzed out, sitting in the hovercar.

If evidence of a plot point required a frame-by-frame VCR viewing of cetain scenes, it’s a failing of the director. Fortunately, he didn’t fail too badly and Harrison Ford was there to keep him from going too far into the Twilight Zone. The most direct interpretation of the film turned out to be the most satisfying.

Of course, anyone who can use a phrase like “the delicate sensitivities of popular movies” in the era of American Pie and American Pie II deserves extra credit for effort.

P.S. People who complain about “spoilers” are missing the point. If you go into a channel thread that carries the title of a film, it’s a safe bet the people there will be analyzing and deconstructing the bejeezus out of it. If there was a general movie thread with people talking about a wide variety of different movies, spoiler warnings are appropriate, but anyone who specifically clicks on a “Blade Runner” thread and then acts all annoyed because someone gave away the ending of Blade Runner had better buy a clue. The only exception would be some net geek who got an advanced copy of the script of Blade Runner II and blurted out “Hey, guys! In the next movie we see Deckard and Rachel in bed and guess what? He’s AC, she’s DC!”

You could say that (but I argue that the Director’s Cut is technically less ambiguous than the theatrical release). Frankly I do not find most of Scott’s work is deserving of his status, but I do think a few of his films like Blade Runner and Alien are impressive achievements. Too bad about films like G.I. Jane and Hannibal.

Having a lead character that is unbeknownst to most an artificial being raises some interesting questions, from epistemology to existentialism (a point that becomes especially relevant considering that this is a film inspired by a Philip K. Dick novel!). It is also a good device for film noir in my opinion, as it just doesn’t get more noir than realizing that the hero is a simulacrum. Note that Deckard in Dick’s book Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep actually spends some time worrying about his nature (whether he is Replicant or human) but undergoes tests to establish his identity and turns out to be a human; Decakrd in Blade Runner on the other hand, does not worry about his nature and does turn out to be a Replicant (at least according to Scott and the leading interpretations of the film).

Ganz Fertig–sorry, Gaff–knows about the unicorn the same way that others are aware of Rachel’s spider-memory, which is something we are informed she has never told anyone else. Gaff could know about the vision for any number of reasons, perhaps from Deckard’s Replicant profile or from whoever programmed his mind. Gaff never seems to be far away from Deckard, and I mentioned earlier that Gaff could be a Blade Runner himself, orchestrating the action and keeping an eye on the Replicant Blade Runner. His ever-present origami could suggest toys, or chess pieces, or even puppets, although here we approach murkier waters.

Well in spite of the flippant humour, I wonder… in the entire movie, Deckard retires two female replicants, shakes up a third one and points a gun in her face before accepting her as companion. Seems to me he is particularly jumpy near women, or at least artificial women! I get the impression that Gaff feels some sort of sympathy for Deckard, after all he lets him and Rachel get away in the end, even though we know that the authorities take a dim view of skin-jobs loose on the streets.

[quote]
Nah. If Deckard is a replicant, it creates a whack of new plot holes:
[list][li]Why does the skin-job-hating Bryant like Deckard so much?[/li][/quote]

How does Bryant like Deckard? He tells him, “if you’re not a cop, you’re little people.” He forces Deckard to return to Blade Running, offering no choice in the matter and in fact threatening Deckard if he refuses. It seems to me he views Deckard as property to quite an extent.

[quote]
[li]If Deckard is a burnt-out replicant, why not just reprogram him? Why resort to veiled “little people” blackmail to get him to do the job he was built for?[/li][/quote]

If Deckard is a replicant, nothing requires that he is burnt-out, merely that he is programmed with certain patterns and memories (in other words, if Deckard is a Replicant do not confuse or conflate his personality with his operational efficiency; as we see, Deckard is quite efficient, retiring two Replicants and surviving encounters with four hostile ones).

[quote]
[li]Why doesn’t Deckard have twice the strength and agility of a human (as described in the opening scroll text, not dropped for the DC, and not specifically limited to Nexus-6 models A, B or C)?[/li][/quote]

I addressed the strength issue in my earlier post. But consider the exact words of the opening crawl:

It doesn’t say “twice”, but simply “superior.” I take this as a generalization, with individual replicants such as Rachel being designed with particular attributes (Rachel is Nexus-6, but she lacks strength or agility and seems no better endowed than an ordinary woman).

[quote]
[li]If Rachel and Deckard are replicants, why would Gaff even consider not retiring them both? Letting one replicant go unretired might hurt Gaff’s career, but two?[/li][/quote]

As I said above, Gaff strikes me as possibly the most sympathetic character in the whole movie (although that’s not saying much!). He leaves an origami of a unicorn in front of Deckard’s door just before Deckard and Rachel begin their escape. The last time they see each other, Gaff even calls out to Deckard, “It’s too bad she won’t live! But then again, who does?”

Gaff knows what’s going on, at least as far as Rachel is concerned. It doesn’t seem like such a stretch to suggest that he would let two replicants get away instead of just one if 1) he had authorization for it, and maybe Chief Bryant has a soft spot for “his own” Replicant after he performed so well; 2) he knows their incept dates and life-span and has little to worry about; 3) he’ll have surveillance on them anyway, and so forth.

On the other hand, maybe Gaff leaving an origami unicorn is simply a way to say “keep dreaming, I will find you sooner or later” (on the impossibility of catching a unicorn, that is, on the impossibility of Deckard escaping with Rachel and getting away from Gaff). However this interpretation is not well supported by much of the rest of the movie (and that would seem to be quite a show of bravado for Gaff).

Actually it seems to me that Deckard as Replicant makes more sense than Deckard as human (for one thing, that explains his emotional void all and the other Replicant clues, such as glowing eyes, dialogue, etc.). You scoff at the possibility that machines can get depressed (Replicants are not machines, but designed humans) but if you really want to get into that I would suggest the inferior film, A.I.. Your comments on the toaster etc., definitely apply to that film rather than Blade Runner! And even then, it’s still a valid theme not deserving of scorn, although in my opinion A.I. was a seriously flawed film.

One of the implied tragedies of the Blade Runner world is that humankind has achieved the power to create life, and has utilized that power to create slaves. Note that Tyrell’s building is an incredibly huge pyramid (recalling ancient Egypt), and I read somewhere that his bed was modelled on Pope John Paul II’s bed. Tyrell is not creating androids or robots or machines; Replicants are living beings, almost indistinguishable from real humans. Tyrell is a human who wants to be a god, and we see the world through the eyes of his living creations; this is an interesting switch-down in perspective from our situation, where we, the living creations, presumably strive to see the world and its Creator (so in one interpretation Blade Runner postulates a kind of philosophical limitation on the creations of creations, or a dilution of divinity, or a box within a box is you prefer).

I think seeing the Replicants as simple machines, which they aren’t, is to miss a fair bit of the examination that makes Blade Runner truly interesting.

Don’t you suppose that is exactly what Scott wanted you to wonder? Their future, their very existence, is highly uncertain. “What is it like to live in fear?” The closing moments of the film probably reflect what every moment in a standard Replicant’s life must be like: closed, boxed in by the awareness of their natures (unlike Rachel/Deckard, who are unaware), with limited control, in potential danger, and you never know what will be on the other side when the doors open (Notice that the previous sentence is not a metaphor for an elevator, but of the closing moments of the film and their interpretation).

On a related note, I just finished watching Ocean’s 11, and that film has just as much of an open ending as Blade Runner. The open or ambiguous ending is certainly not unknown in either film or literature, and as I mentioned Stockton gained some notoriety for what is probably the quintessential example of the open ending, The Lady, or the Tiger. Cute story, important chiefly because of the approach to ending the story.

We are so used to closure that we have come to expect it from all films and experience a perceived lack of closure as a negative and disturbing occurrence in narrative. Yet by leaving the ending open the viewers themselves become a part of the narrative as they imagine what could happen, or as they attempt to extrapolate events from what the film already revealed (something that, with this particular film, has been going on for two decades!).

It seems to me I’m not the one being stubborn here. There is nothing to suggest that the DC ending is supposed to be “more realistic”; it is in fact supposed to be more overtly ambiguous (this, combined with the unicorn scene and the rest of the clues actually cuts down on the film’s ambiguity by emphasizing the possibility that Deckard is a Replicant, and not leaving the question quite as open). I don’t see why the scene of sunshine should represent any kind of reprogramming or even rebirth, since Deckard and Rachel are making an escape to certain eventual death from the only people who could perform alterations to their drastically limited natures (or Rachel’s nature, at the very least). Scott was forced to add the sunshine footage by the studio and it is not considered part of the film that Scott intended to make; like the voice-over narration, that was a Studio issue and not part of the director’s vision.

I read that the aerial shots at the end were from The Shining out-takes. I too remember the shot of Sean Young in the aircar (and I think Ford was in there too) but it would have been a simple matter to mix their images in with any aerial shots (which were actually quite beautiful, and provided a good final counterpoint to the constricting darkness of the film–in fact, it’s not so much anything that happened in the “happy” ending that made it happy, but the fact that suddenly you have sunshine and greenery where before you had darkness and grit. The happiness of the happy ending is more a matter of an unconscious emotional response than anything to do with plot.)

That’s similar to saying that if a film is not immediately clear then it’s a fault of the film, which is preposterous. Each film requires varying degrees of analysis, and if a director puts in hidden detail that is not immediately obvious, he may be doing so for a reason. The serial tags of the renegade Replicants are visible in the video Bryant shows Deckard, but to really analyse them you need to hit the pause button, because each looks something like this: NX6MBB164216. It’s a charming quality of depth and the kind of attention to detail that will make people talk about a film for two decades.

Tolkien does a similar thing in Lord of the Rings, which is packed with an amazing level and range of detail that is impossible to absorb entirely on a first or even second reading–the detail itself becomes as interesting as the story. Indeed, LOTR’s story is properly finished in the detail itself, not in the narrative (you piece together what happens to the characters after the end of the tale of the Ring by reading the various Appendices, and some are quite interesting and surprising).

I don’t see why you say he failed. And the most satisfying interpretation according to you is not necessarily the most direct one, nor in actual fact does it satisfy unless you are willing to ignore the evidence in favour of the Replicant theory–not to mention the director’s (and lead actor’s) word on the matter. But I’ve already outlined my objections above, and I think this is the kind of movie that is made to exist in the viewer’s mind, which means that discussion is not just important, it becomes necessary.

Thanks for the priceless extra credit, but don’t talk apples if I’m speaking oranges. American Pie is a teenage flick, maybe a college flick at a stretch, but it will never be considered a popular movie in the sense of the long-lasting films I mentioned earlier, E.T. and Star Wars, both original versions of which have been somewhat “sanitized” to control reactions across general audiences with puritanical or politically correct leanings. So it’s no longer OK for a film’s hero to shoot first, and it’s not OK for a kid to call another kid “penis-breath”. The bloody MPAA ratings board must be overjoyed.

Oooh, epistomology and existentialism. No film noir movie is complete without them. I understand the Maltese Falcon was symbolic of man’s inner qua value and it’s neverending moonrise conflict with the yin/yang spiral of death-seeking. Or at least it would have been, if Humphrey Bogart hadn’t thought the idea was stupid. Keeping this on the temporal plane, what does Deckard being a replicant actually prove? That rep[licants can get depressed? The straightforward interpretation is more compelling: that Deckard is a man who has lost interest in life, just as humanity starts building machines that have a compelling desire for life. I fail to see how this premise is improved by crating a replicant who has lost interest in life, as Deckard has.

This is wehre the Deckard=replicant theory has its greatest weakness: it requires the viewer to assume more information than presented in the movie itself (i.e. Deckard is a model of some unpsecified variant on the Nexus 6 though he’s been around longer than 4 years; that while the experimental Rachel is working some kind of cloistered office job for Tyrell, the experimental Deckard was programmed to engage in violent and risky law enforcement, etc.) If Deckard is actually a replicant, the movie is incomplete. I consider any story poorly presented if it requires the listener to conduct research or make things up to explain away inconsistancies. Scott made it ambiguous, fine, but if he wants to insist now that Deckard was a replicant all along, he should have made this clearer in the director’s cut. In any case, it doesn’t resolve my original question: How is the story improved by Deckard being a replicant?

Yeah, and he draws his gun on Leon and shoots at Batty. What’s your point? Are you seeing some misogynistic angle that escaped me?

Nevertheless, Bryant praises Deckard on at least two occasions and if Bryant considered Deckard to be mere “property” he should have sent Gaff (or Holden) out to retire Deckard as soon as Deckard quit the first time.

Well, in two of those four hostile encounters, Deckard survives by sheer luck (someone walks into the dressing room before Zhora can finish strangling him; Rachel shoots Leon before Leon can throttle Deckard) and Batty lets Deckard live, though he obviously could have killed him at any time. Only in his encounter with Pris does Deckard show any real “efficiency”. If I had a product that only worked well 25% of the time, I’d demand a refund. Deckard doesn’t seem more superhuman or impressive than a typical movie cop, but the “blade runner” aspect of his job is that inevitably something dies, and there is a chance it might accidentally be a human. This requires a certain psychological profile, and I don’t see why a human could not fill this role (as opposed to a replicant), albeit with the strong risk of burnout.

I was probably confusing this with a Star Trek episode in which a proposed android design did have twice the strength and agility as humans. No matter. If Deckard was designed for police work, why not give him enhanced strength and agility. Leon seems pretty tough as he just designed as a “loader” or some other menial. If Deckard is a replicant, why wasn’t the opportunity taken to enhance his physical abilities to be at least comprable to the replicants he would be chasing and killing? and if you need to come up with some convoluted explanation as to why this was unfeasable, then you’re back to being a viewer who has to make up new informtation to solve some plot-hole.

By the way, Sean Young is pretty well endowed. Hubba-hubba.

You’re still making stuff up, and why can’t Gaff’s comment be exactly as it appears? Rachel will die. But humans die, too (we’re actually quite good at it). Everything dies. Deckard may as well grab what happiness he can in the limited time he has on Earth, be it four years or forty. This message makes perfect sense if Deckard is human or replicant, and the story holds together better if he is human.

Now who’s talking apples and oranges? I’ll have to write the rest of my reply later today. Appointments call.

Okay, where was I?

Okaaaaayy… But Deckard himself starts the film thinking of replicants as nothing more than machines. Besides, they replicants aren’t completely human, as a clone would be. Or at least it’s so implied by Batty’s “God of Biomechanics” reference.

Okay, the replicants are slaves, and they’re just starting to become aware of how much this sucks. How does that support your Deckard=replicant premise? Surely a human can conclude that life sucks independently, no programming necessary.

The references to Oceans 11, The Lady or the Tiger and A.I. aren’t worth discussing becuase I haven’t seen any of those films, nor should I have to, to understand Blade Runner. I can easily handle an ambiguous ending if it meshes well with the story, I just don’t see one in this movie. I conclude Deckard is human and everything else falls rather comfortably into place, with just a few hints of ambiguity. It’s only claiming Deckard is a replicant that creates all kinds of plot holes and inconsistancies and lack of closure.

Well, I don’t agree that a director’s cut that introduces more obscurity into the movie is an improvement. If anything, I’d hope for extra footage and/or an alternate ending which is significantly different than the original. The DC of Blade Runner fails in this respect. Scott only adds more hints without actually offering any evidence. That seems cowardly, somehow.

What alterations? From the conversation between Batty and Tyrell, it’s obvious that altering a Nexus-6 is damn near impossible. The only “alterations” offered by anyone in this movie involves a bullet.

Well, in this case, the suits were right. An ending that shows nothing more than Deckard and Rachel getting into an elevator is justplain dumb. Where are they going? The lobby? The basement? Rachel makes an earlier comment about leaving the city and going “North”. Why is it so inappropriate to show five seconds of then actually going North at the very end of the movie? I’ve never understood the hostility toward this sequence.

Ummmmm… so? Cities (or at least Los Angeles) are dark and gritty with decay while the outlying areas are green and lush with new life. I didn’t need my unconscious to tell me that. As cinematic messages go, it’s not even as subtle as “Rosebud”.

Lots of movies have details that can only be picked up with a “pause” button. Try watching a Star Trek movie frame by frame and you’ll see all kinds of hidden details and in-jokes. If a movie hinges on details that can only been seen on “pause” then the director is doing a lousy job. Now, I personally consider Blade Runner on of ten favourite sci-fi movies, so Scott did okay with Deckard being a human. If he claims Deckard was a replicant, he loses a lot of my respect, as Lucas did when he let Greedo shoot first.

I didn’t need to pay six bucks for something made to exist in my mind. I can do that for free.

Well, I’m glad we agree on one thing: the MPAA are idiots. But unlike E.T. and Star Wars, Blade Runner was never marketed to children. I don’t see how slight alterations favouring the Deckard=replicant idea makes the movie less “offensive” now than to audiences in 1982. Well, I find the changes slightly offensive, myself, but only because they tend to screw up a perfectly good movie.

Anyhoo, I’m going to go see Spider-Man tonight. I hope ten years from now, Sam Raimi doesn’t start talking about how he really intended the hero to be some kind of crab monster.

I think Bladerunner s one f the better SF films, and cerainly visually one of the most stunning. But the things I hate about it haven’t even been mentioned:

Ridley Scott has complaind in interviews that Americans don’t like “crawls” at the beginning of their movies, so he couldn’t put one in ** Bladerunner**. But he did!

But the crawl tells us things that we learn soon enough i the film, so what was the point?

On the other hand, the crawl doesn’t tell us crucial plot information that we don’t learn in the film – like the fact that virtually all animals have died during the recent wars and spread of radioactivity (otherwise the questions asked during the “repliant test” don’t make any sense. Nor does all the brouhaha about the owl.). Or the fact that most of the “competant” people have moved off earth to escape the conditions on earth, so it’s not trash and undesirables they’re luring into the “off-world colonies” with the advertising balloons.

To tell the truth, in the "Is Deckard a REplicnt or Not?"Debate, it still seems pretty ambiguous, with me eaning strongly tward the “not” side. Most of the vidence adduced reminds me of the “proofs” used to establish that Edward e erre wrote the works of Shakespeare – certain lines that could be read a certain way to give the desired result, but no convincing evidence that they were really intended that way. I’ve got the Peary book, too, and Scott seemed pretty ambivalent back then. Do we go with what he says now or what he said then?

Blade Runner is one of my favorites. I saw the voice over in a theatre during its original release and own the director’s cut. Like them both but the director’s is better. Agree that the noir elements and the Vangellis are as compelling as any of the action. The film has a way of standing on its own that most sci-fis
don’t. Having alot of expectations based on viewing other sci-fi
or “space” movies might be disappointing. I also thought the voice over was reminisent of the old Raymond Chandler style “dick” (thats blue collar cop to you) flicks. The ending is as bizarre as the world the movie depicts.

[** For me the unicorn scene is worthless because it only exists to prop up a theoretical plot point that isn’t supported by logic or much of the rest of the movie. **
[/QUOTE]

Why can’t characters in movies have dreams that we don’t understand? Happens to me all the time. Would androids dream of electric sleep?

By all means don’t let me interrupt this time-old argument, but I’d like to throw in another contender for extremely overrated movie. It’s one I’m hearing a lot about, being compared to a movie that just came out.

Batman

I am amazed at how often I’m told that I “have to admit” how great it is. It’s not. The first Batman was crap. Incredibly flat performances by everyone except Nicholson, who was just his usual asshole self. He wasn’t funny, he wasn’t evil, he was just Jack fucking Nicholson, who doesn’t have to act anymore. Put him on stage and let him be a jerk and hand him a Golden Globe. You got Tim Burton, who always cares much more about how anything looks than how much sense it makes, and Danny Elfman’s one music score he does over and over. The sets looked just like sets - it felt like I Was watching a filmed stage play. I had no sense I was watching anything even pretending to be real in any universe.

And no, it wasn’t “just like a comic book.” I read comic books. I know what they’re like. I know that Batman the comic, for all its recent faults, is still more interesting than the watered down crap in that movie.

Then again, I’m not surprised - tell the American public something is “dark and gritty” and they’ll eat it up.

I agree. While I have only been reading here for a while, (being occupied with another thread where I have recently extended an olive branch to Abe), it strikes me that this amazingly detailed discussion has done little to really enhance the existential questions raised by the film. Whether Deckard is a Replicant or not seems to me a needless distraction, sidetracking discussion, as CalMeacham observes, into rather uninteresting examinations of minutiae.
Legomancer It’s so funny you should mention Batman. After watching the new Spider-Man movie last night, I came home and got out my old tape of Batman, mostly to watch Nicholson again. I really enjoyed him the Joker role.

Now, when I first saw the movie, I had a whole lotta criticisms, the first being that Keaton has got to be the wimpiest Batman you could possible think of. But nevertheless, I really enjoyed the whole thing. Seeing it again, in fresh contrast to a movie which IMHO got the whole superhero thing right, the Batman movie really does show its age. Still, it has a special place in my heart as a movie which tried to do a lot of cool things with the characters in a big way.

Well Bryan, I think you are approaching this issue with undue aggression and cynicism. Not everything that doesn’t immediately make sense deserves mockery.

“keeping this on a temporal plane” in response to existential and epistemological issues?? I may be mistaken, but you keep trying to scale down the discussion into something compartmentalized for basic linear straightforward film-watching; however the very fact that Replicants exhibit degrees of emotion is enough to raise the discussion to the next level (epistemology and existentialism, for example). Now, let me rework the points you mocked in that paragraph, and hopefully they will be clear this time:

  1. A lead character that is an artificial being that thinks it is a human being raises some interesting questions, including epistemological and existentialist questions.

  2. It’s a good device for film noir (the requirements of film noir include paranoia, male protagonist with moral dilemma, and NO happy ending, three requirements that are properly satisfied if Deckard is a Replicant)

  3. It’s an especially good film noir device: the central character becomes what he is fighting to eliminate.

You mocked these points in your response, but didn’t address them as replies to your objections.

That is not the straightforward interpretation, certainly not in the Director’s Cut. As I said earlier, even the original version contains clues that indicate that Deckard is a Replicant. I think you are actually rooting for the version that is not straightforward (straightforward according to what the movie says, not according to us figuring out the film with certain prejudices, such as demanding that Deckard be human). I also don’t agree with the statement that Deckard has lost interest in life–he fights pretty hard to stay alive and survive from moment to moment. Deckard’s character satisfies the film noir hero requirements, which are being hard-boiled, cynical, and disillusioned, but he is still sufficiently interested in life to survive.

We don’t have to assume anything when you think about it. If Deckard is a Replicant, he could be brand new for all we know, or he could be older than 4 years as you suggested (but these are guesses). If he is a Replicant, Deckard’s memories would offer no indication of how old he is, so it’s unwise to assume anything one way or another as concerns his past existence. And the fact that this is a film based on a Philip K. Dick novel is quite a telling factor: Philip K. Dick was the master of insanely cross-cutting and reality-altering plots (We Can Remember it for you Wholesale was a story of how events are implanted into humans via their memories, thus creating the illusion that one has been to Mars when one in fact never has).

No assumptions are required, strictly speaking. We see the film, we hear it, we think about it, and we try to raise objections to test our hypotheses. But we find that quite a few of the objections don’t stick, either because of insufficient data and the nature of the plot (e.g. Deckard’s prior existence is a mystery), or because we can easily discount some objections out of hand (e.g., we know that Rachel and Deckard’s memories can be simultaneously real [the spider memory is real, but it is not Rachel’s] and false [the spider memory is false because it never happened to Rachel], so the fact that they are artificial beings with a cognitive past during which they may not actually have been alive does not bother us, because we have been informed of memory implants).

Yes, the movie is indeed incomplete. But I don’t think you ought to let that bother you. As I argued earlier, lack of final closure is not a requirement of every film. Some films are left open or incomplete on purpose because such an approach induces questions and speculation in the audience, and causes the film to take life beyond the silver screen.

Your assertion that a story must be poorly told if it requires the audience to conduct research and speculate is your opinion, and I don’t think it would hold much water on closer examination. A film is just like a book, and a difficult detailed film is also just like a difficult detailed book. The book A Clockwork Orange, by Anthony Burgess, for example, requires a fair amount of research, among other tings to try to understand the Nadsat language. The City-Speak of Blade Runner is not as frequent as Nadsat is in Burgess’s book, but most of us require some research to understand both City-Speak and Nadsat.

A Clockwork Orange was study of free will and psychological behaviourism as a reaction to the “breed of delinquent monsters” panic; Blade Runner is, among other things, an investigation into the various themes of humanity in the face of advancing science.

In both works a high level of detail is a good thing: it gives us much more material to chew on, but it also means more research effort…

You keep asking how Deckard as a Replicant improves the story, but my question is what makes you think such an element HAS to improve the story? The BR story is already a good one, whether we accept Deckard as a Replicant or not. If he is a Replicant, however, some important themes are highlighted, such as the old “brain-in-a-vat” philosophical question and many others. And it makes the story interesting in a way that a human cop hunting down synthetic humans didn’t quite have (not to say BR is uninteresting by any means).

No, that was just a by-the-by observation, and does not require any misogynistic angle. The film just seems to indicate that Deckard is most effective against Replicant women.

You are speculating on what characters must and must not do, and even what character are and when they are (exist). There is little basis in your assertion, because we don’t even know how long Deckard has actually existed, or if he really quit being a Blade Runner, or if it was all someone else’s memory, or just a fabrication. “How do we know what is real?” The question applies to the audience as well as to the characters.

Bryant feels no particular affection for Deckard, although he acknowledges Deckard’s abilities. It is possible to praise someone’s qualities without liking the person or thinking of him as other than property. I just don’t see Bryant as very friendly, particularly not when he’s asking Deckard to come out of retirement and risk his life.

True, but compare the performances of Holden and Deckard and tell me which is the superior Blade Runner! Answer: the one not in a coma. The fact that Deckard survived for longer than 15 seconds against four class-A physical Replicants is remarkable (and he still pulled himself up the wet side of a building in the rain, with broken fingers, while wearing a soaked trench coat, and after receiving a series of fearsome beatings in a matter of, what, 36 hours?).

Perhaps you are thinking of standard-issue supercops like those played by Mel Gibson or Bruce Willis. Blade Runner has more accurate real-world physics than the typical cop movie, and flamboyant actions in the Blade Runner universe would probably result in death rather quickly. I can just imagine the dangling rooftop scene a la Mel Gibson: Roy stamps on Mel’s fingers, Mel lets go and falls to the streets below, crashing into several flagpoles and sundry objects on the way, and lands on a fruit vendor’s stall, completely destroying it and getting covered in fruit; he gets really angry as he stumbles to his feet, then gets run over by a car (obligatory cracks on the windshield) and becomes even more enraged; Mel runs back upstairs to the rooftop muttering things like “now I’m pissed” and–thanks to his righteous rage–is able to beat the tar out of Roy, perhaps electrocuting or impaling him in the process. He and Rachel go live in a trailer on a deserted beach in order to avoid the authorities. They have a Replicant dog. Roll credits.

I agree. It seems clear that Blade Runners are normally human, and not synthetic; it would have been difficult to pass off Blade Runners as human prior to the Nexus-6 series anyway. Deckard, if he is a Replicant, would probably be one of the exceptions, all the more reason to keep things hushed.

The simple reason is that you don’t send out a Replicant as powerful as Leon (we are told he can lift a 450-pound load with no trouble) among the general population that you are (hypothetically) trying to protect. Replicants are potentially unsafe–that’s why their use is limited to off-world colonies only, and their presence is illegal on Earth.

As for Leon’s strength and function, his profile says:

Func: Combat/Loader (Nuc. Fiss)

So he is not just a simple loader (of heavy elements!), but also a more general combat unit. All four renegade replicants have combat functions, which is why they are particularly dangerous running around among the populace.

Why not make Deckard more powerful? Because there is the risk he might do exactly what he does at the end: discover his nature and take off. So then you would have a Replicant on the loose with the experience and knowledge of a Blade Runner and the physical performance of Roy Batty–big trouble. It’s safer to make Deckard strong and resilient, but not exceptionally so, just enough to keep him alive (there may also be problems with the presence of superhuman replicants on Earth as opposed to human-class replicants).

I have to agree. I particularly like the femme fatale looks they played on for the film–no self-respecting film noir is without a femme fatale, of course. Other requirements of film noir are satisfied by her witty and somewhat racy introductory dialogue (for example, “is this to test whether I’m a Replicant or a lesbian, Mr. Deckard?” and “I should be enough for him [husband]”) and the fact that even though Deckard doesn’t actually buy her a drink (another film noir standard), he does give her a drink of some sort of booze, i think Scotch.

Not at all. I am interpreting the movie along the lines the director himself laid down in the film. I’m not even trying to rationalize the problems with Blade Runner, and I acknowledge the film does have its problems. Most of your objections can be countered using material contained in or suggested by the film.

That is true. However it is by no means the only possibility and it is not supported in the wider context of the film, particularly considering that Gaff does not waste words–especially not to state the obvious. I remember an earlier script had one of Gaff’s lines as “You’ve done a man’s job, sir! But are you sure you are man? It’s hard to be sure who’s who around here.” This somewhat overt homage to Philip K. Dick was considered too obvious a clue and the line was cut to “You’ve done a man’s job, sir!” There are other examples of similar lines that were cut down because they were a bit too overt, whereas Scott was going for greater latency–the kind that weathers 20 years of discussion with no trouble.

What do you mean? I was referring to your assertion that Scott’s Director’s Cut changes are more or less equivalent to Lucas re-editing Star Wars to make Greedo and not Han Solo shoot first. I suggested the reason for the latter is that having such a “roguish” main actor would be considered offensive (or at least grating) in a popular film. I suggested as another example the deletion of E.T.'s famous insult “penis-breath” from the recent Director’s Cut.

This has nothing to do with American Pie, which, as I said, is a teen toilet flick of little import. It is disgusting on purpose, and its audience expects to be disgusted—not so with the other films we are discussing. Lucas was thinking of making Han Solo more politically correct because the audience for his films is, in contrast to Pie, quite a general one who wants good guys vs. bad guys, not rogues vs. worse guys (or idiots and hot Eurobabes vs. way too much toilet humour).

The change in Star Wars, which I do find silly, is nothing like the additions to Blade Runner DC, which are valid expansions of existing elements. I’ve already demonstrated that Scott wanted to and did suggest Deckard may be a Replicant back in the 1982 version; therefore he couldn’t have had the idea in 1992 and come up with a Director’s Cut film revision just to drum up interest.

I have to go but will be back in a while or in a day at the latest to address your second post. How was Spider-Man? I’ll probably be seeing that next week.

Okay, this Café discussion is starting to take the tone of a religious Great Debate, which is typically a sign that everyone involved needs to get a life. I just want to clarify some minor points about misinterpreations of my earlier posts.

I wasn’t mocking Blade Runner, I was mocking your rather pretentious interpretation of Blade Runner. The use of ten-dollar words like “epistemological” and “existential” in one sentence sets off my Personal Pretention Alarm (patent pending).

Your excessive use of the phrase “film noir” also sets off my PPA, especially when you follow this syllogism:

Film Noir movies have to follow a certain path.
Blade Runner is a film noir movie.
Therefore, Blade Runner follows a certain path.

When did film noir become such a rigid genre? Besides, you’re taking the “hero must become what he is fighting” angle too literally. Replicants are cold-blooded killers and Deckard is a cold-blooded killer. How does that prove he is a replicant? And when did happy endings (even mildly happy endings like the original in Blade Runner) become strictly forbidden? Blade Runner may be film noir-ish, but why does that mean it has to follow a checklist of genre plot points? Sounds pretty boring to me.

Incidentally, I wasn’t comparing Blade Runner or any other movie to American Pie. I was ridiculing your statement about “the delicate sensitivities of popular movies”. American Pie and its sequel were popular movies, and they ain’t so delicate.

As for mocking something that doesn’t make immediate sense to me… nah. Your views as expressed the first time were pretty clear. I just don’t agree with them and find your means of expressing them overly heavy-handed and pretentious. Hence the mockery. I’ll restate that I’m mocking you, not Blade Runner, which remains one of my favourite sci-fi films.

Well, if I addressed every single one of your points with a detailed reply (mocking or otherwise), the posts in this thread would get longer and longer and more and more boring. I prefer to dash off a quick quip and ignore points I consider irrelevant than get bogged down in trench quote warfare.

Ewww. It’s a rather cheap debating stunt to claim I’m getting upset (well except that my PPA is blaring at the “life beyond the silver screen” line). Actually, I’m perfectly happy with Blade Runner the way it is, with Deckard being a human. And this is not due to some Disneyfied conditioning I’ve undergone which makes me crave saccharine.

On a final note, if Gaff’s quote had been filmed as you describe, my honest first impression wouldn’t have been that Deckard was a replicant. I would have started thinking that maybe Gaff was a replicant, the unflappable law enforcement wave of the future, who wasn’t trusted by Bryant to take on this crucial job.

Hey, the more I think about it, the more the Gaff-is-a-replicant view makes sense. If we keep the original voice-over, the whole “Gaff was brown-nosing for a promotion [to human status?] and he didn’t want me around anyway” line takes on a new light. And Gaff’s ability to use cityspeak displays a certain adaptability one might want in a law-enforcement replicant.

Epistemologically, it’s the only reasonable solution!

As odd as this may seem, I would like to offer an observation in support of Abe’s posting style. Since our little tete-a-tete, I feel that I have a developed better understanding of his style, and that he has modified his posts to avoid giving the impression I originally found so grating. I see his latest post as excited by the vigor of the discussion, not o’erweening. I have really enjoyed reading the exchange between Abe and Bryan Ekers, and feel that I have learned a great deal about the movie.

In fact, I think that Abe has made a very good case, and that I must modify my original position, as follows. While I concede that the possibility that Decard is a replicant has substantial basis in the film, I find that my resistance to this position rests on the simple fact that I do not like the idea. It leaves absolutely no hope, and this is not something I enjoy. Perhaps the idea of an affirming ending after so much misery and darkness is facile, but I find more satisfaction in the idea that humanity, as represented by Deckard, can in fact find some measure of peace in relation with that which he has created in his image. I am much more interested in Deckard as a human man, struggling with his soul, than I am with the idea of a machine, struggling with its programming.

Yes, there is a huge conflict there, in that I do feel empathy for the characters of those replicants which were retired, but nonetheless, my human bias remains ascendant.

Still, the line “More human than Human,” has certainly been whizzing around my brain the last few days.

Abe, I’ll try to reply to your post in the other thread in the next day or so. Just too damn much to think about.

I gotta’ disagree with you there, Gorgon Heap . I think this is one of the very few movies that caught the feel of teen life in the late fifties/early sixties. Certainly, it did this much better than Rebel Without a Cause and several others. Graffiti, and, in a more urban setting, Blackboard Jungle, caught the feel of it. The other movies on the subject were laughable. If all you wanted to see was drag racing, ok, be dissappointed. If you wanted to pick up a chick, cruise the strip, bust open a pinball machine, hear the music and go to the drive in restaurant, American Graffiti took you there in a realistic way.

<vigorous applause> Thank you! I never understood how Scarlett could be conceived of as a heroine when she was a money-hungry, self-centered, grasping whore. Jaysus… I hate that movie.

I also detest the Wizard of Oz.

The MoviePix cable channel is playing Blade Runner even now and Deckard just (ewww) snapped his fingers back into place.

This scene raises an odd nitpick, though. Deckard takes his first shot at Batty and misses, and is subject to replicant taunting. Batty calls Deckard by name. How does he know Deckard’s name? On careful reflection, the only character who knows Deckard and Batty is Tyrell, and he gets killed without mentioning Deckard by name, or at all.

I’ve decided it must have been Gaff the replicant who told him, further evidenced by his line “I guess you’re through, huh?” right after “You’ve done a man’s job, sir.” I take that as solid evidence the Gaff represents the replicant future (plus the fact that he lets Rachel, a fellow replicant, live) and humans are on the way out. Talk about a grim film noir ending. This presentation on MoviePix is clearly the Director’s Cut, by the way, and they’ve chopped that final ride into the sunrise, which I think is a mistake because the elevator door closing is a pretty dumb ending by itself.

Rutger would have been an awesome Batman, way better than the Keaton/Kilmer/Clooney clowns.

I think that was the point. Intentional cheesiness fits in with the story. Even though I thought the book was much better, the film is good stuff.

I’ll have to pick a movie that lot of critics thought was so good it deserved Oscars (damn critics): The English Patient. What a snooze fest!

What can I say, Bryan? Your dislike of the intellectual approach to the arts is noted, as are the rather disjointed counter-arguments you mistakenly think entitle you to speak with such mockery. Nonetheless, I will address the second part of your old post, because it has problems that can then lead me to your recent expression of distaste should you decide to persist with it.

It does not need to support that premise, nor do I believe I ever said it did. You are making all sorts of unnecessary connections between everything I post; of course you’ll end up with a garbled view like that.

However, the question of whether Deckard is a Replicant or a Human is just part of one of the bigger question explored in the movie, which is “what is human?”. You insist that Deckard must be human, and are denying one of the film’s most important layers simply because, as you repeatedly assert, to you it doesn’t make sense.

Oh dear. No film is an island, and the overwhelming majority of films share a varying number of qualities with other films. In some films, a specific quality is clearer, better, more significant, or just more directly observable than in other films, and reference thus becomes a very useful approach (not to mention that film makers invariably study, allude, or refer to other pictures when making their own!). It is absolutely pointless to talk about Film noir, for example, if one has no knowledge of the films, techniques, etc., that make up this genre/movement/style (if they ever decide what to call it). It is presumptuous to think that you could understand, or at least appreciate, any film (especially a difficult one like BR) with absolutely no reference (direct or indirect, obvious or hidden) to other films, particularly as you seem rather unappreciative and dismissive of some established narrative devices.

Examples and references help to make a situation clearer and explain why I am saying the things I say. The Lady, or the Tiger is a short story by Stockton I linked some posts ago because it gained notoriety among literary circles thanks to its deliberately incomplete ending at a rather critical point; in fact, it even became known as a prime example of the unfinished critical ending, a sort of Schrodinger’s Cat of literature. S-Cat is a thought experiment in which an unobservable cat–a macroscopic object–is both dead and alive in quantum superposition as a result of unobserved atomic decay–a microscopic change that could or could not result in the death of the cat by a given moment (50% probability). The added question, apart from how it’s possible for a dead cat and a living cat to be smeared into one superposition, is when and how do microscopic possibilities resolve into a particular macroscopic state? Anyway, that is probably not the last time you’ll hear of Stockton’s story if you think of having such discussions, although the S-Cat analogy is (as far as I know) mine and should not necessarily be considered, I just thought it might suggest a better approach to both BR and Stockton’s short story.

Ocean’s 11 I provided simply as a very recent instance of the open, inconclusive, critical ending, which is in fact not a wholly uncommon ending (SPOILER: after a pseudo-ending [c.f. BR rooftop scene] the heroes are shown driving off with huge armed thugs following in another car). You ought to pay more attention to phrases such as “on a related note”, which is what I prefaced my comment on Ocean’s 11 with! A.I. I provided as a better subject for the kind of flippant simplistic mechanistic analysis that you posted here:

I suggested you may have missed the point, and if that was the sort of approach you were looking for, a film such as A.I. would make better subject matter.

Several arguments still stand to the contrary, particularly as regards your assertion that the movie works well only if Deckard is human (which requires overlooking the many clues to the contrary). At any rate, as you stated a number of times, you have concluded one particular way over another and that is an example of belief. You may believe whatever you want of course, but when discussing a movie in an arts forum it helps if you can back up your opinion with more than belief. So far I think I have addressed every single objection you have raised, and you merely resorted to mockery to boost your position.

I can see how it is possible to think that. However Blade Runner is a dark and obscure film to begin with; I have argued that Scott introduces more surface ambiguity in the DC. The Unicorn add-on actually provides support for previous hypotheses that were somewhat more vague before the advent of the DC, but that become more distinct and better-supported possibilities once we factor in the new material. If I may draw mercilessly on my Schrodinger Cat of Literature analogy, the movie also achieves a sort of “quantum” superposition wherein Deckard is both a Replicant and a human to the observer. Of course this is ridiculous if you look at it from a linear narrative point of view (much as the S-Cat concept is ridiculous in classical physics, yet has been demonstrated to a degree) but it becomes important when discussing a movie that has two simultaneous valid interpretations, one of which however does not make sense on its own (Deckard must = human, for reasons already discussed, is not well-supported on examination of the finer details in the DC, and the case for it in the original version is also not the strongest–that is, based on analysis of detail, because if we ignore a lot of the detail I agree that the original version otherwise makes sense).

We as the audience know that improvements to a Replican’t life-span are (at least according to Tyrell) not possible. Roy knows this too, since he gets this information from Tyrell before committing deicide. But were Rachel and Deckard ever informed of this?

Anyway, I raised that point because you suggested that the final scene in the original theatrical version represented some sort of rebirth. The final scene is a red herring: we see some daylight greenery after the darkness and pollution of futuristic L.A. and we feel a false sense of closure. It’s not rebirth at all, because Deckard and Rachel still have the same problems they did in the lift (the unknown limit on life-span of Rachel, and potentially of Deckard) minus the immediate problem of being hunted down by chief Bryant (and, since Gaff already let Deckard and Rachel go, we can assume that he disobeyed Bryant the same way Deckard did when he was instructed to retire Rachel).

I can only answer with what I already posted days ago:

And, as I said earlier, the original sequence is more a red herring than an ending, and I don’t understand the hostility you feel towards the more honest DC version. Why is ending the film on a note of uncertainty “plain dumb”? It is indeed more fitting that a film of shifting realities and natures like Blade Runner should end with a final series of questions reflecting the uncertainty of existence (“what is it like to live in fear?” Rachel and Deckard are just two more Replicants on the run now, and the hunter has become the hunted).

You really ought to try keep the thread of the argument before resorting to unnecessary sarcasm. You asked: “How is that [the DC ending] more “realistic” than showing us how she and Deckard left the city? Besides, the sunshine footage symbolized Deckard’s emotional rebirth (or reprogramming…)”

I replied, with added emphasis: “There is nothing to suggest that the DC ending is supposed to be “more realistic”; it is in fact supposed to be more overtly ambiguous (this, combined with the unicorn scene and the rest of the clues actually cuts down on the film’s ambiguity by emphasizing the possibility that Deckard is a Replicant, and not leaving the question quite as open)”

My assertion was that the original ending provides a false sense of closure, when you were complaining about the apparent lack of closure in the DC version. I tried to explain that the two endings are not that different in terms of closure, but the original ending deliberately plays on the emotional recognition of greenery and sunshine after oppressive darkness to provide us with a false impression of happiness and comfort. Like you, I also don’t see the original ending as “happy”, but that is how it is nicknamed.

Why? Because the viewer has to put effort into the film to get at the bottom of it? Because the film’s interpretations are not immediately obvious? Because the film’s meaning changes depending on how closely you scrutinize it? To achieve this kind of film is the precise opposite of a "lousy job, " at least when it comes to more cerebral films as opposed to plain action productions with guns, explosions, martial arts, swords, etc. as selling points. Blade Runner is not simply an entertaining film, but also one that asks us to think; to think we need substance to go on, and the level of detail in BR gives us substance and implications to think about for quite a long time.

The Greedo and Deckard changes are nowhere near similar in quality or character, as I explained. You may be saying that the extent of the similarities between the two in your opinion is that they are A) strictly speaking post-release changes and B) you disrespect them both, but I’m reading a more extensive (and pejorative) analogy in your comments on this matter.

In fact, the Greedo change is a change to alter significantly the previously established nature of Han Solo (from space rogue to a more “decent” good guy); the Deckard change serves to clarify an intent that has been in Blade Runner since its release in 1982 (Deckard is a Replicant), and it is not an arbitrary invention of the 1992 DC or later as you first claimed. The changes are quite different in nature and serve quite different purposes. One is nothing but bland populist revisionism, while the other is an expansion of material that already existed in the original film.

Well I seriously hope this was a joke! Otherwise it would help explain your disdain of references to existentialism and epistemology.

Hell yes. No one or organization has done more to harm the film industry than the MPAA and its ridiculous puritanical “standards” of “morality” and “decency”. Film critics like Ebert are quite vocal on this topic too, but the MPAA seems impervious to criticism.

No, no, I did not say that the changes to Deckard were intended to make the film less offensive! I said that of the other two examples! The changes to E.T. and Star Wars had bases in political correctitude, but not the changes in Blade Runner, which actually expand on elements already present in the film and have nothing to do with politically correct nonsense. Different reasons, different changes. That’s what I was going on about, in response to your claim that the changes in BR DC are of the same nature as the Greedo/Han Solo change in SW.

I’ll be back later on to wrap up my response.

Yondan, as far as I am concerned being told that a discussion has been interesting and enlightening is the most flattering of compliments on these particular boards, and I am very grateful for the sentiment, as well as for the fact that we managed to solve our little differences! Just one quick thing to think about before I must dash away:

Don’t forget, “what is human?” If Deckard is a Replicant, I don’t think he is a machine. Replicants are exceptionally accurate simulacra of humans; indeed, the whole point is that they are almost indistinguishable from the real thing, and then only experts can tell the difference based on observation of minutiae. If you look at this in a strictly biological manner, the idea of soul becomes irrelevant because the soul, like the concept of mind, can be considered a referential abstraction resulting from the ordinary operation of an intelligent self-aware biological organism (no luck with technological organisms yet). Therefore according to this argument Replicants have souls and minds, since they are intelligent, self-aware, and biological.

On the other hand, if you postulate that the soul must be divinely infused into a being the question becomes much thornier. Would a clone have a soul? Do identical twins (natural clones) have to share a soul, or do they also have identical souls? Replicants strike me as very similar to clones, since they are genetically engineered from human tissues. But they are not machines as such, unless we take the view that we are all biological machines anyway.