Bluffing one's way through

Ignoring, for the moment, the utter lunacy of calling either of these issues “basic,” it was, as my subsequent citation of numerous scholars demonstrates, Diogenes, and not myself, who misunderstood these “basic” concepts.

No critical discussion of either issue would term these “basic,” and much scholarly ink has been spent on understanding them. I’d be delighted to see Diogenes falsify that claim.

Yet E P Sanders cites Cicero, De Divinatione 2.28

Sanders goes on to note of this passage “The view espoused by Cicero has become dominant in the modern world, and I fully share it.”(The Historical Figure of Jesus, p.143)

In the greatest of irony, Crossan–who Diogenes lauds–has this to say of the miracle on Emmaus: “Emmaus never happened, Emmaus always happens.”(Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography, p.197). The irony, of course, is that Crossan is doing exactly what Diogenes has just condemned–finding a deeper, more meaningful sentiment behind Emmaus, rather than condemning it as the fiction it obviously is. This is characteristic of Crossan, who has observed more than once that he never distinguishes between the “jesus of history” and the “Christ of faith”–a dichotomy integral to any serious look at the historical Jesus. Schweitzer would be disgusted.

This, as seen in Diogenes’ condemnation of Sanders, Meier, and Brown–none of whom he’s read, save Brown’s Death of the Messiah (and I doubt he’s read that except in the excerpts carried in Crossan’s response)–is his ad hoc response. Don’t agree with me? You’re theologically biased.

Even more ironic, in a later thread he miscited the page he had just stated he’d read–he claimed that Mark Goodacre argued for an interpolated Lukan nativity. Goodacre does no such thing.

Origen mentions Thomas as well, but it’s really unnecessary to find more than one to falsify this nonsense. Eusibius, Ecclesiastical Histories, 3.25

Farrer was apparently supposed to be Goodacre. It doesn’t matter, neither makes this claim. As noted above, he obviously hasn’t read the Case Against Q webpage.

Were it just one or two occurrences, one could easily conclude that they were simply mistakes, or cases of getting caught up in the heat of the moment. Taken together, these move one ineluctably to an obvious conclusion: Diogenes is interested not in discussion, but in dazzling us with research he hasn’t done, on topics he’s scarcely familiar with.

Further discussion is thus a waste of my time.

Regards.

link plz

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4716095

Regards.

If further discussion is a waste of your time why did you open a new thread about it?

To clarify for purposes on the other thread why I wouldn’t be responding to further arguments presented by Diogenes.

Regards.

To summarize that discussion, I said that the Jewish expectation of the Messiah is not a divine one and that certain phrases (i.e.“Son of God”) have symbolic meanings rather than literal. You then spent a lot of time talking a bout the Dead Sea Scrolls and hyperbolic descriptions of a supernatural Messiah (not God, but something like an angel). You agreed that no Jew thought the Messiah was God, which was my only real point, and you just quibbled over the definition of “divinity” which I used only in the sense of the Messiah being an incarnation of God or being an object of worship. I eventually agreed that the Essenes may have had a more superhuman view of the Messiah so I don’t see what the disagreement is there.

Yet E P Sanders cites Cicero, De Divinatione 2.28

Sanders goes on to note of this passage “The view espoused by Cicero has become dominant in the modern world, and I fully share it.”(The Historical Figure of Jesus, p.143)

In the greatest of irony, Crossan–who Diogenes lauds–has this to say of the miracle on Emmaus: “Emmaus never happened, Emmaus always happens.”(Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography, p.197). The irony, of course, is that Crossan is doing exactly what Diogenes has just condemned–finding a deeper, more meaningful sentiment behind Emmaus, rather than condemning it as the fiction it obviously is. This is characteristic of Crossan, who has observed more than once that he never distinguishes between the “jesus of history” and the “Christ of faith”–a dichotomy integral to any serious look at the historical Jesus. Schweitzer would be disgusted.
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All this stuff is about whether which scholars have theological agendas and which don’t. I’m pretty sure I never “lauded” Crossan so much as I just said that I agreed with some of his conclusions (specifically that Jesus did not have an apocalyptic message). I denied that I had a theological agenda. I don’t think I commented one way or the other about Crossan.

I had to read Death in college, I was a religion major. as a matter of fact, I had to read Brown’s Death AND Crossan’s Historical Jesus then write a paper about who I thought was more convincing. I though Brown took too much as historical and I resonated more with some (but not all) of Crossan’s conclusions. I didn’t see as much theological bias in Crossan but that’s purely subjective on my part.

You said this:

The way this response was constructed led me to believe you were summarizing the Farrer hypothesis. I didn’t realize the Lukan Nativity thing was your own modification. It was just a misunderstanding. So sue me.

Origen was probably referring to the Infancy Gospel of thjomas. Eusebius probably just followed Origen.

I corrected my own mistake. The link said “Farrer Hypothesis.” I didn’t realize that the author was Goodacre until after I posted my response. As soon as I figured out my error i corrected it.

Really, you haven’t shown anything that I was “bluffing” about, only that I disagreed with you on some things and made a couple of mistakes of attribution.

I don’t claim to be an expert (I just have a BA in Religious Studies) but I do have a working familiarity with these topics. I’m sorry if I failed to be blown away by your arguments.

And you couldn’t do that in the original thread?

The post is an attack on one’s character, calling into question motivations rather than his arguments–I’d already explained why the arguments were wrong.

An attack on one’s motivations is an ad hominem. It doesn’t belong in a debate thread.

Regards.