Personally, I think Lindsay has a very valid point. She’s hit on the two reasons I refuse to be a donor. #1, my organs might help an a-hole. #2, if anyone is going to make a big dollar profit from my organs, it’s going to be me. F those guys! Yeah, like I’m going to give you my organs so you can make a whopping profit selling them to someone else. Sure, I’ll sell 'em to ya! I’d be a great one to gamble on too! Shoot, the way I ride my motorcycle at 150mph+ the odds are in the recipient’s favor!
As an ER/ICU nurse I have a pretty different opinion of organ donation than Lindsay, well that’s fine but I want to know were all this talk about huge profits is coming from. The prossess is very expensive, which I can outline if you want. If you have a source for your claims that someone is making a huge PROFIT I’d like to see it
Here’s a summary of the thread so far. Lindsey posts what is obviously a GD topic, proposing a discussion of the sale of body parts.
Jophiel says:
Breckinshire says:
Jois says:
WHAT experience?! She donated blood in the OP. That experience?
Lindsey says:
Anti Pro asks:
and points out:
Lindsey says:
What does this mean? It is completely irrelevant to this thread. We begin to suspect that it refers to a private conversation between Jois and Lindsey.
Won’t some kind moderator take pity on this thread and move it to GD?
“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen
I beg your pardon–I stand corrected.
She did not donate blood in the OP, she only made out her will.
Sorry for the confusion.
“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen
It’s going to Great Debates now. I apologize that I cannot be on-line 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for your convenience.
. . . and the horse you rode in on, Lindsay.
Here’s my proposition. We legalize the selling of organs. I’ll let you work out a price schedule–a hundred thou for a kidney, two-fifty for an eye or a liver, a cool mil for a heart, whatever.
Then you give me your address.
I’ll have some folks drop by and price you out, giving me a finder’s fee (I think ten percent would be fine for me, it’d still be a couple hundred k). A few healthy folks like yourself shoud set me up for an very early retirement. With enough in the bank to pay for a personal security force to keep the other part-time organ-leggers from coming after me next.
Do you understand some of the objections to free-market body parts now?
-andros-
(***Disclaimer: The above should in no way be construed as a threat of any sort. It is intended merely to illustrate a flaw in the OP as perceived by the author of this post.)
<<< a little stiffly >>>
Manhattan, I think you should know better than to post an apology not only in the wrong thread, but in the wrong forum entirely! The “Apologies” thread is over in the Pit. Shame on you! How long have you been a moderator, anyway? Some people have no respect…
“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen
<<< for the rest of you who came in late, the quote Andros takes exception to is in Lindsay’s 12:00 a.m. post, embedded within her “grocery cart” anecdote. I don’t get it either, I’m just standing here directing traffic. >>> :rolleyes:
“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen
I’m having a ilttle trouble figuring out which particular bee Lindsay has in her bonnet.
Lindsay, are you upset because organs are bought and sold, period?
Or are you upset because organs are bought and sold for so little money, that something as precious as human body parts should be demeaned by having a price tag put on them? Or are you upset because organs are bought and sold for so much money, that they’re so expensive?
It seems like at one point you are saying, “I would never donate my organs”, but that the next minute you are qualifying that by saying, “…unless the price was right.”
What is it exactly that you want to discuss here?
Or are you upset because Donna Shalala is supposedly organizing some great governmental conspiracy to rob decent citizens of their organs?
I read your other thread http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/007870.html
that described how your boyfriend was “murdered” and his organs “stolen”. Are you angry because his organs were taken at all, that his body should have remained intact, or are you angry because they were taken supposedly without anyone’s permission, or are you angry because the family wasn’t paid enough for them?
“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen
Lindsay: Would you object if you needed an organ and you knew the donor was an asshole?
You’d best hope that the donor doesn’t think that of you.
I read that one too (and the other one, and the other other one. . . ). The whole thing is starting to sound a bit like one of those urban legends to me.
The descriptions of “a journalist did an investigation and found the Los Angeles Co. Coroner routinely took corneas without informing the families” sounds like something taken almost word for word off snopes.
The added little boost of "Reminds me of those nurses in Florida who asked that Haitan woman who spoke French, not English, AND had a head injury, if they could harvest her dead son’s corneas. No informed consent there, but the boy’s body was robbed.
His father said he has nightmares about seeing his son’s face and two black holes where his eyes should be" finish the tale with just the perfect touch.
Think we could see a cite for any of this?
We had a good go round a while ago on the social implications of organizing a market for body parts: http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Archives/Archive-000008/HTML/20000401-7-000315.html .
Never attribute to an -ism anything more easily explained by common, human stupidity.
CKDextHavn:
Fortunately, the family has no say in declaration of death. Brain death can only be declared by a doctor, after the appropriate tests have been run.
Let me summarize lindsay’s arguments against donation.
1.You are a sucker if you give away anything without being paid. Hospitals are raking in the bucks with donated blood and organs; the donors should get a share of the wealth.
2.An unethical coroner used illegal means to obtain her boyfriend’s corneas.
3.It is possible for the blood or organs you donate to save the life of someone you dislike. (Presumably, getting paid for your blood or organs makes up for this.)
4.No good deed goes unpunished. The shopping cart incident was directly the result of donating. Other negative things have happened to her after donating blood and platelets; therefore those bad things were caused by donating. Therefore, if she stops donating, fewer bad things will happen to her.
5.Paying donors would make more organs available.
My personal opinion is that the best way to end the organ shortage would be to assume that everyone is a donor unless stated otherwise (this works well in Belgium), unlike our present system, which does it backwards. A policy like this would allow people like lindsay to refuse to donate, while ensuring that most viable organs are saved.
To: Threemae, my decision applies only to my spouse and my siblings. There are no children involved, we are all childfree.
I would decline an organ transplant, even if it would prolong my life.
I’ve also been a sap and donated blood and platelets at the blood center. My reward was a cookie and juice.
As for the nursie who lied about the consent, I watched the trial on CourtTV, and watched the dummy try to explain how she got consent from a woman who spoke no English and had a head injury. The jury awarded the family only half a million dollars in damages.
That family’s religious beliefs were against taking body parts.
(Big sigh).
This is all a personal choice. Leave the emotions out of it, and look at it as a business, which it is.
Sure, go ahead and weep because some kid or a pregnant woman with four kids needs a transplant if you want.
I still take someone with me when I am in hospital because I don’t want anyone deciding it would be better to ‘let me go’, I just believe the body harvestes would be in the next room waiting for me to die.
Paranoid? Maybe.
Selfish for wanting money for my body parts? Sure, so what.
I’ve been a blood donor for five or seven years, my body is in fairly decent shape. So if my siblings can make a profit, fine.
I even took a girlfriend to be a donor, and she donated until she married. Her husband told her the idea of giving blood was creepy so she quit.
Even the lady I donated a unit for told me I was wrong to give it for free.
Of course surgeons and hospitals make a bundle, they wouldn’t do these operations unless they paid well.
It is time to spread the wealth to the most important person, the Donor, without whom nothing gets done.
lindsay
This got started when I read a letter to the editor and the fellow was making a case for allowing donors to be paid.
His comments are rational. If you have a commodity someone else wants, there is no logical reason to not pay for it.
Like everyone else I think of myself first. My family could retire if they successfully outbid anyone else for any organs.
This would benefit my family and I am all for that.
Like I said I am a mercenary. If it is worth having, it is worth cash.
lindsay
About Donna Shalala I couldn’t be angry about whatever she is attempting, since I don’t know what it is. From the brief article it looks like she wants organs to go the sickect first, instead of the current system where the patients in any given area have ‘first claim’ on organs donated within the region.
What bothers me is that my beloved did not want to be a donor. It also bugs me that his family was not ask, and therefore, did not give consent.
On another and final note, aren’t there some problems with assuming that everyone would be a donor, unless asked?
Aren’t there diseases that could be hidden, and could emerge later?
Surely you wouldn’t want to receive an organ and later find out that the donor had something like Huntington’s Chorea? Or had had Human Growth Hormone injections and you would then be in danger of contracting CJD?
I think my idea is better, let those of us with health organs decide if we would want to be paid for them.
Knowing your family would also get benefits could be an incentive to take better care of oneself.
At www.courttv.com there is an index of all the cases, somewhere the case in Florida will be listed.
lindsay
holly:
Well, that’s not entirely true. Barring a living will, the family always has a say in when and whether to pull the plug. Often, the sooner it’s pulled, the better for potential organ recipients. And it borders on naive to think that doctors are all equally ethical, Hippocratic Oath notwithstanding. It hundreds of thousands of dollars were at stake, even doctors would bend the rules.
lindsay:
I’m sorry, but I don’t believe you. But if it is the case, I’m glad there’s one fewer person in line if I or someone I care about needs a transplant.
Why thank you. How gracious. I’ll let you sit in the room with them as they die because they can’t afford your organ prices. You can laugh and eat popcorn and dance on their graves. Enjoy it! After all, they aren’t you! Yay!
NO. That is not like everyone else. Some people like thinking they can do some good after they’re done with their parts.
The fact remains that organs are not stolen willy-nilly. If your husband’s eyes were taken without his or his family’s permisison, there is a legitimate lawsuit to be had. Take 'em for all they’re worth. I wish you luck–if it’s as cut-and-dried as you say, you should have no problems raking in the settlement cash hand over fist.
But I’m sorry you believe as you do. I cannot even comprehend your mindset, and I’m usually pretty good at empathy. I’m not sure if you’re chock-full of hatred or purely egotistical. Either way, I’m sorry for you. 
-andros-
** This is all a personal choice. Leave the emotions out of it, and look at it as a business, which it is. **
Lindsay, you speak of leaving emotion out of it, and yet your whole argument is based * on your ** anger ** * about what happened to you:*
(1) you’re not going to give blood because of a ‘creep’ who was angry that you had given the appearance of having ‘stolen’ a grocery cart.
(2) your ‘beloved’s’ corneas were taken without your permission.
You pronounce yourself shocked and upset over the corneas being taken in one breath, and in the very next breath, you ask for cold hard cash.
I’m against paying for organs, for the reasons that have already been stated, MY reasons for * wanting * to donate AREN’T emotionally based. The organs will not do me any good, and if anything I have will help someone else living, to have a better life, * then that’s what I would want. *
I realize it would be a terribly touchy situation to approach a family member about donating organs, and it usually has to be done before or closely following the person’s death, when the shock and trauma of the family is the keenest.
And, certainly there are creepy people drawn to any profession in which they were involved. It’s unfortunate, some are doctors or nurses or anyone associated with the organ donation/retrieval process.
That is why these things should be thought about when there is no accident/illness pending. As for parents and having children die, my * own mom’s heart almost faints here *, but children’s organs are among the most difficult to be found. I still would do it, as hard as it is to think about DJ or Billy’s death, I believe it’s healthier to think on what’s ** best **.
And it would be easier to live with my son’s death knowing someone else (possibly even a ‘rude creep’) was able to experience a better life.
Have I missed something, or is the primary argument against the sale of organs that my loved ones might kill me off for profit? This is pretty weak.
Let’s say I’ve got a million dollar house (paid for), and I’m near death. That means my heir could pull the plug and then sell the house for a million dollars. Does this mean that we shouldn’t allow houses to be sold?
I believe that my organs are mine and I (or my heir) can sell them, give them away, or wear them on a t-shirt. That is to say, I know the law doesn’t allow all these things, but it should.
While I don’t think I like Lindsay much, I’m willing to support Lindsay’s right to do with his/her (sorry, name doesn’t give it away) orgas as he/she sees fit.
As an aside, I wouldn’t have married my wife and thus designated her as my heir, if I wasn’t reasonably confident that she wouldn’t kill me without good reason. Of course, we pay for our mistakes…
Only a small number of people are truly awake. These people go through life in a state of constant amazement.
Vernet and Vincent vs. University of Miama is the trial about illegally taking the Haitan boy’s organs. It is from 1998.
lindsay