Book of Mormon described as "Another testament of Jesus Christ" in ads. Is this true?

Great Debates
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How long do you think it would take to find 12 people in today’s world who claim aliens have abducted them?

Would that be clear and convincing evidence that aliens had visited the earth?

Using Diogenes’ logic, this means that the chance of aliens abducting human beings is more likely than Jesus’ miracles. And one person more likely than the BoM being true.

Think about it - just because 11 people say it’s so, doesn’t make it so.

And the claim of the “fastest growing religion” on Earth does not mean it’s true.

Like it was stated earlier, you have to prove to me it’s true, I don’t have to prove it’s false.

A great quote was posted on another message board:

"…(People don’t) stay in the LDS church because they know it’s true. They stay in it because they don’t know it’s false."

LDS people - question your religion - and don’t follow blindly. The doctrine of “…when the Prophet speaks, the thinking has been done…” is a dangerous slippery slope to go down. Would you accept that in any other organization?

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Rico, very interesting thoughts. I think the majority of the members of the LDS church realize that they are not following the Prophet blindly. They have a firm faith that the prophet is by definition, just a middle man between all the people on earth and Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. The prophet doesn’t just make things up as he sees fit. He recieves revelation on how to run the church of God. This is not a papacy, this is not a gerontocracy. The head of our church is Jesus Christ, not a prophet.

How can following the only perfect man to live on earth be blind?

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FtL: Utah Lighthouse Ministry? You’re kidding, I hope!

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partly_warmer: Your attention (if it may be called that) is directed here.

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Man, you shoulda heard some of the Great Thoughts I used to get after a few hits from the bong back in my college days. Thanks for the memories!

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BTW, Rico, which telepathic fool was it who’s decided they know without a shadow of a doubt what my motives in remaining in my faith are whom you quoted?

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Stccrd, I certainly admire your dedication to your religion, and to your willingness to discuss in a rational manner. While I am not a “Mormon-Basher,” I do see many things wrong with this religion.

The doctrine of “when our leaders speak, the thinking has been done” (apologies for my earlier misquote) is firmly entrenched in the LDS religion. Are Mormons allowed to think for themselves? Of course they are, but they are strongly advised against it. Consequences can range from a simple bishop’s admonishment to full blown excommunication for questioning what the leaders of the church have to say.

And Monty, what’s wrong with the Utah Lighthouse Ministry? Yes, the Tanners have an agenda, and the agenda is admittedly against the LDS religion. They are certainly vocal in their opposition, but in the long run, I have found them to be very fair in their observations. When Mark Hoffman was selling his forgeries to the LDS church, the Tanners could have jumped all over the messages in those papers, seeing as they could have been very damaging to the LDS church. However, they conducted their own investigation, and were the first to cast doubt on the Hoffman forgeries. Let’s keep it civil, Monty. There is no need for you to attack the rest of us who are trying to have a rational and friendly discussion here.

While I am the first one to admit that the LDS religion has quite a bit of good in it, I must also state that “good” in a religion does not make it the “one and only true religion” on the face of the earth. Catholicism has good in it, as do the Episcopalians, Methodists, Unitarians, Judaism, and just about any other religion there is. Does that make them the “one and only true religion?”

One of the major contradictions is in this: In the LDS Articles of Faith, number 11, it states: “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.” But do they? If you’re not a member of the LDS church, you will not share in the “complete and full glory of the Father.” And once you have been “offered the fulness of the Gospel”, i.e. the Mormon religion, if you don’t convert, you will be relegated to the lowest rank of Heaven. This tactic is used in conversion of people to the LDS religion. So in essence, the LDS are telling prospective converts, that “yes, you can continue worshiping in the way you have been, but since you have been offered the LDS religion, if you reject it, you cannot obtain God’s glory.” Talk about pressure for someone who is “seeking a better way.”

I enjoy these discussions. Thank you for keeping this civil and keeping it on a level of honest and friendly disagreement.

Oh yes, and as my wife (LDS) just said, “There is no hard and fast evidence that the BoM OR the Bible is true. You must take it on faith.” And faith is impossible to explain away in a scientific way. If you have “faith” that the LDS religion is true, no one, including me, is going to sway you from that belief. My only purpose of posting my side is to encourage discussion, oh yes, and present a side that is not often heard.

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I am keeping it civil, Rico. The Tanners are certainly not on the side of civility.

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AND they gave their real names.:smiley:

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There isn’t any evidence to support the claims of the gospels, either. And pointing out that written documents had less weight in Jesus’ time does not help your argument.

Simply casting aspersions on Mormons does not constitute an effective argument. To say that the miracles you accept on faith in your religion are somehow more valid than someone else’s is the height of arrogance.

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How do we know they were’nt liars?

The only difference is that Joseph Smith didn’t live 2,000 years ago. If Christianity had started 100 years ago, it also would have failed the honesty test.

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No, I’m not, Monty. The Mormon arguments and evidence I came across against the Tanners to discredit them was - well, let me put it this way: I saw Mormons on sites complaining bitterly (and rightfully so) when such argument and evidence approaches were being used against them.

There are a few things I would have done a bit differently in the way the Tanners presented some of their material - particulary in their earlier material - but they offered compelling evidence (eg. copies of original documents) to support most of their more important claims. I found the Mormons have not.

FoL

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Rico: I was being facetious. I think that Smith’s Golden plates, UFO’s, the miracles of Jesus, Atlantis, ESP, Angels, ghosts, “pyramid power” and bigfoot are are all equally plausible. My point was that it is ridiculous to say you believe in one mythology and then sneer at someone else’s.

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So you’re being as selective as you and the Tanners accuse us of being, Loki. Got it.

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Yes.

The Book of Mormon both foretells the coming of a Messiah and testifies that he has come.

The Book of Mormon is Christ-centered and the major significance of the Book of Mormon is its witness of Jesus Christ as the Only Begotten Son of God the Eternal Father, who redeems and saves us from death and sin. Equally important is its explanation of the Savior’s atonement, which is the most fundamental doctrine of our faith.

Here are just a few of many available examples of scriptures from the Book of Mormon that so testify of Christ:

“For behold … salvation was, and is, and is to come, in and through the atoning blood of Christ” (Mosiah 3:17-18).

“Neither did they receive any unto baptism save they came forth with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and … took upon them the name of Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end” (Moro. 6:2-3).

“And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot” (Moro. 10:32-33).

"…rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ … that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins” (2 Ne. 25:26).

“there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah” (2 Ne. 2:8).

“Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; … he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law” (2 Ne. 2:6-7).

“There can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world” (Alma 34:12; see also 2 Ne. 9:7; Alma 34:8-16)

“Did not Moses prophesy … concerning the coming of the Messiah, and that God should redeem his people? Yea, and even all the prophets who have prophesied ever since the world began—have they not spoken more or less concerning these things?” (Mosiah 13:33.)

These verses say He is the Creator, Jehovah and would take a mortal body in order to redeem mankind:
Ether 3:6-16; 1 Ne. 19:7-12; 2 Ne. 9:5; Mosiah 3:5; Mosiah 7:27; Mosiah 13:34; Mosiah 15:1; Mosiah 19:13;

These verses say He would be the Son of God, the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh, the God of Israel:
1 Ne. 11:20-21; 1 Ne. 22:12; 2 Ne. 25:12; Jacob 4:5; Mosiah 15:2-5; Alma 5:48; Alma 7:10; Alma 9:26;

These verses say His mother would be a virgin, a descendant of Jacob through King David; she would be from Nazareth, and her name would be Mary:
1 Ne. 11:13-21; Mosiah 3:8; Alma 7:10

This verse says signs would attend his birth:
Hel. 14:3-7

These verses say His name would be Jesus Christ:
Ether 3:14-16; 2 Ne. 10:3; 2 Ne. 25:19; 2 Ne. 31:10; Jacob 4:11; Mosiah 3:8, 17; Mosiah 7:27; Alma 5:48

These verses say Jesus would be born in the meridian of time; 600 years after Lehi left Jerusalem and 5 years after Samuel’s prophecy:
1 Ne. 10:4; 1 Ne. 19:8; 2 Ne. 25:19; Hel. 14:2

These verses say Christ would be born among the Jews near Jerusalem at a place called Bethlehem:
2 Ne. 10:3; Alma 7:10

This verse says a messenger prophet would prepare the way for Messiah’s mission:
1 Ne. 10:7-9

This verse says He would be a child in Nazareth:
1 Ne. 11:13, 20

These verses say He would be baptized by the messenger-prophet beyond Jordan near Bethabara; the prophet would testify of him, and the Holy Ghost would descend on him as a dove:
1 Ne. 10:9-10; 1 Ne. 11:27; 2 Ne. 31:4-8

These verses say He would suffer temptations, hunger, thirst:
Mosiah 3:7; Mosiah 15:5; Alma 7:11

He would call twelve Apostles in the Old World and twelve disciples in the New World:
1 Ne. 11:29, 34; 1 Ne. 12:8-10

He would minister in power and glory, performing miracles:
1 Ne. 11:28, 31; 2 Ne. 10:4; Mosiah 3:5-6; Mosiah 15:6; Alma 5:50

He would be a stumbling block to his people, who would reject him:
1 Ne. 19:13; 2 Ne. 10:3-5; 2 Ne. 25:12; Jacob 4:15

Christ would yield himself to suffer:
1 Ne. 19:9-10; Mosiah 15:5-6

He would suffer to atone for our sins and help our sicknesses; blood would come from every pore:
2 Ne. 9:21-22; Mosiah 3:7; Alma 7:11-13; Alma 21:9; Alma 34:8-9

He would be judged and placed in prison:
1 Ne. 11:32

Christ would die voluntarily:
1 Ne. 19:9-10; 2 Ne. 2:6-7; Mosiah 15:5, 7

He would be crucified for and by his people
1 Ne. 10:11; 1 Ne. 11:32-33; 1 Ne. 19:10; 2 Ne. 6:9; 2 Ne. 10:3-5; 2 Ne. 25:13

He would be buried in a sepulchre:
1 Ne. 19:10; 2 Ne. 25:13

Signs would attend his death:
1 Ne. 12:4-6; 1 Ne. 19:10-13; Hel. 14:20-28

Jesus would rise from death after three days and show himself to witnesses:
1 Ne. 10:11; 2 Ne. 25:13-14; 2 Ne. 26:1; Mosiah 3:10

Others would be resurrected because he overcame death:
2 Ne. 2:8; 2 Ne. 9:4-13; Mosiah 13:33-35; Mosiah 15:20-24; Mosiah 16:7-11; Alma 11:42-45; Alma 33:22; Alma 40:2-23; Hel. 14:25

Christ’s atonement would be infinite:
2 Ne. 9:7; 2 Ne. 25:16; Alma 34:8-14

His sacrifice would satisfy the laws of justice and mercy:
2 Ne. 9:25-26; 2 Ne. 25:16; Mosiah 15:8-9, 26-27; Alma 34:14-18; Alma 42:13-30

His atonement would redeem all mankind from physical death, brought by Adam’s fall:
2 Ne. 2:8-9; 2 Ne. 9:4-15; Mosiah 15:7-9, 20-27; Alma 11:39-45; Alma 12:21-25; Alma 40:23; Alma 41:2-15

His atonement would make available the forgiveness of sins for all who have faith in him, repent, are baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, and endure; they thus become his sons and daughters and receive joy and eternal life:
Isa. 1:16-18; 1 Ne. 10:4-6; 2 Ne. 2:3-29; 2 Ne. 9:10-42; 2 Ne. 31:10-21; Mosiah 3:11-19; Mosiah 4:5-30; Mosiah 5:6-15; Mosiah 15:10-19; Alma 5:6-62; Alma 11:36-43; Alma 12:12-37; Alma 22:14; Alma 34:2-41; Alma 42:2-28

Christ would visit a branch of Joseph’s descendants:
1 Ne. 12:1, 6; 2 Ne. 26:1

Look up the references here in the Book of Mormon and read them for yourself if you like.

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The definitions of testament

tes·ta·ment Pronunciation Key (tst-mnt)
n.

  1. Something that serves as tangible proof or evidence…
  2. A statement of belief; a credo…
  3. Law. A written document providing for the disposition of a person’s property after death; a will.
  4. Testament Bible. Either of the two main divisions of the Bible.
    Archaic. A covenant between humans and God.

The verses from the Book of Mormon in the above post taken together in the Book of Mormon are a testament of Christ according to definition 2. of testament from dictionary.com.

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No, I don’t think you have got it, Monty.

What I didn’t particularly care for at times in the way the Tanners presented their material was their sometimes stating the obvious, and in a sometimes longish fashion, about what was already apparent in the documents, etc., they had put copies of into their materials. But then that’s a reflection of my own reading tastes. Maybe they wanted to make sure that people really got the point.

Another thing I didn’t think was needed was them at times pushing some of their extrapolations of some of the evidence to what I thought was the limit. It wasn’t necessary. I found this more in their earlier work.

One other thing I didn’t care for was some of the off to the side comments they made at times that really weren’t of value.

If anything, I was selective in favor of the Mormon side.

FL

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But not selective to the point of being stupid.

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My apologies for my last comment.

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It wasn’t meant as it will probably be interpreted by some here.