Even though the life of an outside cat is pretty short, I think that you’re underestimating the number of litters that an enthusiastic intact queen can birth. And neutering doesn’t just prevent toms from breeding, it also cuts down on the number of cat fights. Toms fight other toms, and they’ll generally kill any kittens they can find, and the queens who try to defend them.
I support the OP’s mission, and congratulate her on managing to trap a wily tom.
Awesome work, as usual, flatlined! 
If it helps at all, in addition to ear-tipping, the clinic where I work uses the Humane Alliance model for high volume surgeries and techniques. Part of that is including a small tattoo on ALL spays and neuters, regardless of whether they have a home or are being TNR’d. (Since even if they have a home, you never can say they will never get out!) The tattoo is just a 1/4 inch line, with green tattoo ink embedded. It’s done on the midline abdomen, on males and females, in the same place as where a spay incision would be made. It’s a great way to permanently indicate “a surgeon has been here” when spay scars can be difficult to find, and when an already-neutered male gets shaved for a spay. (I’ve seen it happen!) We do this on all cats and female dogs. Male dogs it’s really not necessary, unless the dog gets neuticles! :eek:
If your relationship with your vet is close enough to bring up something like this, this may be a technique he may find useful not just for his TNR aid, but for his regular practice, too. No additional equipment is needed aside from a $4 tube of green tattoo ink (that lasts through several hundred surgeries). We just make a shallow 1/4" cut with the same blade used for the spay/neuter on the same animal, smudge the ink in with the back of the blade, and then skin glue over it.
The idea is that there are a lot of people who don’t know what a tipped ear means, and many who don’t recognize it, especially if the cat experiences damage to the ear later on, such as from frostbite or from fighting. So the tattoo is a permanent indication that may not save the cat from being trapped again, but will stop a surgery once the abdomen is shaved. Sort of a last line of defense.
Good to find you in full action with your new trap!
Oh, and for others who have been conversing about the effect of trapping-euthanizing, here are a couple links on the vacuum effect from Alley Cat Allies and from the Feral Cat Coalition if you’re inclined to read more. The first one is short, the second one might be a bit TL/DR.
flatlined do you have an organization that pays for the vet bills or do you personally pay for everything yourself?
Hurray, SeaDragon posted! She knows so much more about doing this than me.
SeaDragon, I have a very good relationship with our Totally Awesome Vet. I’ve never heard of the green ink tatoo and I’m sure TAV will be receptive. I’ll buy the ink if he will use it, and I think he will. TAV has stopped recommending Science Diet because of my lectures about nutrition. I’m the one who got TAV to start eartipping the ferals, so I’m betting he will take the extra step.
Today I took my foster kittens to another foster home and M helped me move the cage out of my barn and into the cathouse. I made M go outside while I opened the cage. Steve promptly ran up my arm, tried to eat my face and leaped from my shoulder to the balcony. I’m smarter than the average cat, so I was in full leathers and had my head tucked down. I was expecting this reaction, but M was all !!!
Ferals are so afraid of people that they will do anything to get away from them. If it means scratching and biting, they will do that. Its fear, they would rather run away.
I think its great that there are so many people who understand the importance of TTNR, or even TNR. Keep spreading the word!
**Lynn Bodoni **is correct about people understimate how fast a queen can breed. From what I know, they cycle according to the light. Here in the desert, a queen can have 3 litters a year and the kittens are ready to breed in less than 6 months. Using very conversitive numbers, if one queen has 2 litters a year, with 4 surviving kittens, 2 of those kittens will be become queens that year, with 8 more queens breeding as soon as they are mature.
Intact ferals only live for a few years, lets say 3. She will have 12 female kittens during her lifespan, and her kittens will have 12 each during their life. I’m tlaking to the smartest people in the world, you can do the math from here.
(worried about the internets eating this, so stops typing and will make a new post.)
We are a poor rescue group. I paid for Steve myself. I pay for as much as I can, but when I don’t have the money, the group pays for it. My idiot cat was shot in the face while he was a stray and I didn’t have the money for that, so the group paid for it. My brain dead cat came to me with a badly healed broken jaw, a badly healed broken leg and burns on his belly. I couldn’t afford that either, so the group paid those bills.
(long story short, the police got involved with this because brain dead cat was tortured over a long period of time. They didn’t care much about the cat, they were worried about the children in the home. sighs. The children were abused even worse than the cat.)
We get broken bags of food and litter from the bigger stores for free. We have recently found a rich patron who sends money to the vet, which helps out a lot.
Anyhow, are you asking because you are wanting to help out the strays in your neck of the woods? There really are a lot of people who will help, you just have to do some phonework. If you are needing low cost options to fix your personal cat, help is available as well.
Flatlined- you are a treasure.
No I’m not wondering about rescuing the local strays because there are none around here! I live right in the city and I’ve only ever seen two cats in the area and they are let out of basement apartment windows to watch birds and then run back inside if anyone says “hi kitty!”. There are lots of cats looking outside from in their homes around here when I go walking but the far majority of people don’t let them out.
I’ve been involved in cat rescue before when I lived in the country. There was a large colony that just kept getting larger and larger as people kept dumping their unfixed cats. I set out on a mission on my own and trapped most of the cats, found homes for the ones I could and had euthanized the sick, injured and too wild ones.
I was asking because I wondered if you had a way to accept donations.
So, flatlined, this totally functioned as an ‘‘ask the…’’ thread for me. I learned quite a bit reading this.
I currently have a healthy, purring and warm kitty in my lap, and it makes me sad that many cats don’t get the chance to be so tremendously spoiled. Thank you for doing your part to make their lives that much better.
flatlined - Last year I was looking for a barn cat. 2 of my 4 cats were supposed to be barncats, but preferred the waterbed to the hayloft. I told my vet what I was looking for, and he told me to call the pound. He’d treated a very feral cat with a degloving injury on his tail. This cat was a friend to no one. The vet even said he’d do an additional surgery on the cat to bob the tail, which it needed, at no cost to me. We had a plan where when the cat was knocked out from the neuter and tail surgeries, they’d put him in my large dog crate, I could take him home in that, and acclimate him to the barn that way. I called the pound and they told me I could pick him up on the following day. The next day came and they called me and told me he was too wild and dangerous to adopt out, and they were going to euthanize him. I explained I had all the cuddly cats I needed, and wanted a wild cat for the barn, but to know avail. They said if he injured me, they could be liable, knowing how mean he was. So this cat never had a chance. It was a real shame.
StG
Just so no one takes the question I’m about to ask in the wrong way…
flatlined: Thank you so much for what you’re doing. I knew nothing about TTNR until your thread about your new cage. I think it’s an awesome idea and I totally support it.
This is why I’m asking the question:
I was given the opportunity to write a 1000 word extra credit paper on something biological in social or public policy (I wasn’t aware there was a difference between the two, but apparently there is). I didn’t like any of my professor’s suggestions though. After looking up the definition of social policy, I asked him for permission to write about using spay/neuter to control feral dog populations (I couldn’t remember what you called it). I know it’s much more common with cats but since I’m a dog person and all 3 of my dogs were born to feral mothers, I felt like it was a good topic. He gave permission. So, now that I’m researching the topic, I’m finding a lot of conflicting opinions - none of which have changed my opinion at all. But, I have come up with something I don’t understand.
I understand about the whole vacuum effect thing (euthanize a feral dog and another will just take it’s place). We just covered density dependent growth in class so it made total sense to me.
But this is what I don’t understand (I’m not even sure the question makes sense so if it’s a dumb questions, feel free to tell me that):
You alter the feral cats (or dogs) and return them to their original environment. They wont be adding to the feral population any more. Wont this actually cause holes to be filled by other feral animals? What happens when a returned animal dies and leaves a hole?
I really hope you can clear that up for me. My professor is a stickler for details and if I came up with that question, there’s a good chance he will too. Not answering it could cost me extra credit points.
Here is flatlined’s earlier thread on her new trap.
Hmm, I’m not sure if you posted that for my benefit but if you did, thanks. I didn’t see the last few comments last time I read it and flatlined’s second to last post actually clears things up for me…I think.
So, the goal is to catch as many as possible and fix them (supposedly fixed animals are less destructive - I wish someone would tell my Iggy that). You do this with the understanding that there will probably always be more ferals sprouting up but hopefully the existing population will be less of a menace. Also hopefully, the presence of the existing but now less destructive ferals and their monopoly on kitty resources will slow down the feral inflow enough to keep the problem less of a problem than it had been before starting TTNR. Until the humans in the area learn to stop contributing to the increasing feral population, there will always be one, regardless of what people like flatlined do. But, their efforts at least calm the problem down as much as possible.
Do I have that right?
flatlined, I wouldn’t do this for just anyone, but you inspired me. I used a lot of your ideas and expanded on them.
*Steve walks warily down the street, With his tail tucked way down low
Ain’t no sound but the sound of his feet, The tomcat’s ready to go
Are you ready, Are you ready for this, are you hanging by your claws on your seat?
Out of the doorway the cat trap snaps to the smell of the mackeral eats!
Another one lost his nuts!
Another one lost his nuts!
And another one trapped, and another one trapped,
Another one lost his nuts!
Hey, she’s gonna get you too,
Another one lost his nuts!
There are plenty of ways you can trap a cat, and bring him to the ground
You can bait him, you can chase him, you can treat him bad, and tempt him when he’s down
But she’s ready, yes she’s ready for you! She’s trapping with something to eat!
Out at the cat trap the door slams shut, and another one hears the beat!*
That Sir, was awesome.
Ok that’s very good.
Flatlined, thanks for all you do.
Also, I think you should take photos of big 'ol feral toms being cuddled and show them to their kitty friends.
Thank you for doing this flatlined.
I just sang this for my wife & son. They laughed, cried, and groaned. So it that’s the effect you were going for, congratulations!
(And well done, flatlined!)
but if I replied to everyone, this would be a world record post. Please accept my thanks for your kind words and thoughts. I’ve had a busy weekend and this is the first time I’ve been able to respond.
Steve and I have come to an arrangement. I knock on the foster house door and wait for Steve to go into the enclosed porch. Then I can go in, feed and clean. When Steve can see me outside, he knows its safe to go in and find gooshy food in his bowl. He doesn’t like me any better now, and I’m pretty sure that when I leave the door open for him, he will be out like a flash.
AWWWWWWWW!!! Wow. Almost speechless here.
FloatyGimpy, thank you both for the work you did with the colony and for the offer of donations. I do not have a way to accept them and would point you at my rescue group anyhow. http://www.petfinder.com/shelters/AZ32.html PAALS is a 501c charity, so donations are tax deductible.
I see some pretty ugly things doing rescue, but I also see such kindness. I will remember this for a very long time.
Sighs. That is so sad. Poor guy. We do adopt out barn cats, but I spend a LOT of time explaining that they have to be fed and that they will probably never get close enough to be petted.
YES!!! Beams happily. At least that’s the theory for feral cats. I don’t know much about dogs, but I’m thinking it would work the same way. Seadragon would probably be a better one to ask. If you have more questions, I can ask the dog rescue people locally for you.
Hurray! My own theme song! I LOVE it!!! Thank you so much. I called M and sang it to him. He sighed and said “Is the sort of abuse I need to learn to expect?”
There will be lots of laughter and groaning at work tomorrow.
Again, thank you everyone. I’m smiling so hard now that my cheeks hurt
Sweet! Since I already wrote my paper and got the seal of approval from my mom, sister, and boyfriend, I was really dreading finding out that I had misunderstood the whole thing.