Border Fence approved

Great Debates
21

[QUOTE=chappachula]

[QUOTE=Cisco]
i] … imagine it from the viewpoint of a Mexican. .
The whole world thinks we’re an arrogant, exclusive, bigoted, uncaring country club /QUOTE]
I’m not sure about the whole world, but I know that a whole lot of Mexicans think that this arrogant, exclusive,bigotted, uncaring country is the best place in the world to live.

My grandparents came thru Ellis Island, and I’m proud of it.
But they came legally. And they proudly taught their kids English, and didn’t demand that the schools teach in any other language.
[/QUOTE]

It’s law not some fantasy demand on language. And the language was part of the US before English wetbacks got here. And their is no evidence that Spanish speaking immigrants learn English at any slower rate.

22

[QUOTE=Triskadecamus]
I think we should put a statue of Bush, every mile, with a sign that says, “Huddled masses need not apply.”

Tris
[/QUOTE]

Bush, unlike a great deal of his party, has been both intelligent and compassionate about this issue.

23

How are we going to find the labor to build it?

Oh, wait…… Never mind.

24

Yep, you speak with straight tongue. Bush wanted a pretty humane plan. Remarkable how inept he is with party discipline in Congress.

25

[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi]
Yep, you speak with straight tongue. Bush wanted a pretty humane plan. Remarkable how inept he is with party discipline in Congress.
[/QUOTE]

And it was a pretty damn decent plan too. It still needed increased enforcement on the border, especially in Arizona and internally IMO. We have all the laws on the books already for enforcement. We just don’t have the means to implement them.

26

[QUOTE=Unregistered Bull]
Bush, unlike a great deal of his party, has been both intelligent and compassionate about this issue.
[/QUOTE]

So the old, “He’s not evil, he’s just incompetent” defense jumps up again.

The man is the leader of his country, and the leader of his party. Nothing that happens is his fault, because he is an ass, being led by the nose, and we are all getting exactly the leadership we deserve.

Tris

27

[QUOTE=Triskadecamus]
I think we should put a statue of Bush, every mile, with a sign that says, “Huddled masses need not apply.”

Tris
[/QUOTE]

Nope, that’s exactly the opposite message it would send. Rather, it would say “Huddled masses need to apply just like everyone else.”

[QUOTE=Cisco]
It just sends a bad message. Try to imagine it from the viewpoint of a citizen of any other country. Try really hard to imagine it from the viewpoint of a Mexican. Remember that there is no discussion about putting up a fence on the Canadian border.

The whole world thinks we’re an arrogant, exclusive, bigoted, uncaring country club right now and we keep reinforcing their opinion over and over.
[/QUOTE]

As people have said before, there is no proposal for a fence on the Canadian border, because Canadians are not illegally pouring over the border at anything like the rate that Mexicans are.

I don’t know that the fence will work, but the US has every right to do something to secure borders that are being as flagrantly abused as the US’s Southern border is. Every country has that right, and it’s not arrogant or bigoted or racist or anything like that. If we had a “white’s only” official immigration policy, you might have some kind of argument, but we don’t.

28

[QUOTE=Rodgers01]
Nope, that’s exactly the opposite message it would send. Rather, it would say “Huddled masses need to apply just like everyone else.”
As people have said before, there is no proposal for a fence on the Canadian border, because Canadians are not illegally pouring over the border at anything like the rate that Mexicans are.

I don’t know that the fence will work, but the US has every right to do something to secure borders that are being as flagrantly abused as the US’s Southern border is. Every country has that right, and it’s not arrogant or bigoted or racist or anything like that. If we had a “white’s only” official immigration policy, you might have some kind of argument, but we don’t.
[/QUOTE]

That’s because the Canucks have no reason to cross. Illegals have came here forever to work illegally. To me, because I don’t hate them or resent them, because I’ve been around them my whole life, they have an easement of sorts AFAIC. You take your chances. You come here and get caught. You come here and don’t. Until recently, it really was no big deal. You went back and forth. You worked jobs that the US didn’t have enough citizens willing to do. I’m just not a fanatical law and order guy on every law including this one.

The bigoted part comes with the made up reasons about why it’s so bad that get bandied back and forth by the usual suspects, rightwing bigots like FAIR and Vdare, who make up the reasons in the first place. Then the lazy incompetent press doesn’t even investigate. They report it like its truth. And the hatred in folks’ voices and physical expressions in many antis such as that of talking heads Lou Dobbs or the nutcase Minuteman Ghilcrist (sp?), is just so blatantly apparent. And then the desire for vengeance, for being mean, for punishing instead of fixing a problem combined with the total lack of compassion just exacerbate the notion that alot of irrational hate is behind this. I’m thoroughly convinced that most people who are so hardcore on this issue in other parts of the country simply hate seeing Mexicans.

On gun boards that I’ve been a member for years, rightwing Republicans (which I used to be until this issue came up) continually make jokes and engage in serious discussion about genocide, cold blooded murder, concentration camps, etc to fix this problem. Every hardcore anti that I meet personally comes across to me as a bigot, and many of them as just plain nuts.

I’m in a border state. I’m not awfully far from the border. There are plenty of illegals and plenty of US citizens by birth or amnesty here. And it’s fine and dandy. I just don’t buy the argument that antis make. The idea that this problem is so great is a minority viewpoint.

29

[QUOTE=Rodgers01]
Nope, that’s exactly the opposite message it would send. Rather, it would say “Huddled masses need to apply just like everyone else.”
As people have said before, there is no proposal for a fence on the Canadian border, because Canadians are not illegally pouring over the border at anything like the rate that Mexicans are.

I don’t know that the fence will work, but the US has every right to do something to secure borders that are being as flagrantly abused as the US’s Southern border is. Every country has that right, and it’s not arrogant or bigoted or racist or anything like that. If we had a “white’s only” official immigration policy, you might have some kind of argument, but we don’t.
[/QUOTE]

Good job at missing the point of my post. I knew someone would be talented enough to do it.

30

[QUOTE=Unregistered Bull]
a minority viewpoint.
[/QUOTE]

where I live.

31

[QUOTE=Unregistered Bull]
where I live.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t think that it is illegal immigration is viewed nationally as that big a problem either.

32

[QUOTE=Cisco]
I searched - visually and with the engine - and the most recent thread I could find was from early June, so I apologize if I missed something.

I thought this was a joke the first couple of times I heard it. A fence - a literal fence - stretching across our border with Mexico? No way.

Yes way.

Boy, we’re really going out of our way to present ourselves to the world as a beacon of freedom, huh?

Reminds me of that old song “Signs”.
[/QUOTE]

Well, it’s almost a case of shutting the barn door after the horse got out (or in, actually). We should have built this fence back in the 70s.

And unless it is monitored 24/7 with electronic surveillance backed up by people with guns who will shoot the people trying to get through the fence, it will be a meaningless gesture.

33

[QUOTE=Rodgers01]
As people have said before, there is no proposal for a fence on the Canadian border, because Canadians are not illegally pouring over the border at anything like the rate that Mexicans are.
[/QUOTE]

If you think no one has proposed a fence on the Canadian border, you would be wrong. In fact, the very bill being discussed here includes a provision to “study” the possibility of a Canadian border fence. cite However, one might reasonably think that such provisions are insincere bits stuck in to deflect criticisms of racism, etc, that is, that no one really thinks this is a serious proposal, even those responsible for including the “study” provision. I dunno. But as a Canadian, I just sit back and think of what the border looks like between Vancouver and Glacier Park, and I say, “You wanna build a fence there, you go right ahead. Have fun.” Makes me laugh, it does.

34

[QUOTE=Cisco]
I searched - visually and with the engine - and the most recent thread I could find was from early June, so I apologize if I missed something.

I thought this was a joke the first couple of times I heard it. A fence - a literal fence - stretching across our border with Mexico? No way.

Yes way.

Boy, we’re really going out of our way to present ourselves to the world as a beacon of freedom, huh?

Reminds me of that old song “Signs”.
[/QUOTE]

I agree wholeheartedly that a border fence is pretty dumb. I fail to see how it has anything to do with freedom inside our country. Most of the free countries in the world have immigration restrictions and make attempts to regulate the number of persons who can immigrate to the country, persons illegally crossing the border tend to undermine such efforts. The fence is there to keep persons from illegally entering the country, something I think most sane, rational people would agree is a good idea.

Without controlled immigration you have tons of problems crop up.

Of course, the problem is I seriously doubt this fence will do any bit of good, which is why it wasn’t a good idea to build it, but it doesn’t affect the freedom of United States citizens. And if it affects the “freedom” of people to illegally enter the country, I think it’s pretty obvious that that isn’t a bad thing. I’m all for immigrants, they inject a vital lifeblood into a country, but I fail to see why any efforts to stop illegal immigration instantly get laughed at as “assaults on freedom.”

35

[QUOTE=Cisco]
It just sends a bad message. Try to imagine it from the viewpoint of a citizen of any other country. Try really hard to imagine it from the viewpoint of a Mexican. Remember that there is no discussion about putting up a fence on the Canadian border.

The whole world thinks we’re an arrogant, exclusive, bigoted, uncaring country club right now and we keep reinforcing their opinion over and over.
[/QUOTE]

Um, what?

Because we’re seen as “arrogant” and “exclusive” we should allow unrestricted immigration en masse? Do you really think that’s a reasonable solution?

If not, I’m guessing you think immigration should be regulated. And with regulated immigration comes people who will attempt to bypass said regulation. Do you not agree that these persons create a problem? That something should be done about them?

I’ve already voiced my opinions about the fence. But you’re speaking much more generally, you seem bothered by the idea that we want to regulate, control, or limit the number of persons entering our country.

As for Canada, we’ve been tightening border security to the north for several years now, there was a time when you could go back and forth without a passport, and a quick wave to a guy in a guard booth. Unfortunately those loose controls have been taken advantage of by persons presenting a danger to the United States. It was nice while it was like that, but sadly the world has changed.

36

[QUOTE=Jakonovski]
I think he’s referring more to the fact that “bring me your huddled masses” has become “fuck off you dirty foreigners (unless you’re rich)”.
[/QUOTE]

When “bring me your huddled masses” was in effect there were virtually no social services in this country. More people didn’t really equal more government spending to support them. Compulsory public education was just being implemented in the 19th century, there was no Social Security Administration, etc.

There also was not too much of a work shortage. There were tons of low income jobs around, and if things were too crowded in one city, you could start moving west to any of the new, booming areas sprouting up across the country.

Things aren’t like that now. Unrestricted immigration would unfortunately bring with it an unmanageable host of problems.

37

[QUOTE=Martin Hyde]
As for Canada, we’ve been tightening border security to the north for several years now, there was a time when you could go back and forth without a passport, and a quick wave to a guy in a guard booth. Unfortunately those loose controls have been taken advantage of by persons presenting a danger to the United States. It was nice while it was like that, but sadly the world has changed.
[/QUOTE]
There was the millenium bomber guy that was caught but who else has there been? It must be a staggering number since 200 million border crossings occur each year.

38

[QUOTE=Cisco]
It just sends a bad message. Try to imagine it from the viewpoint of a citizen of any other country. Try really hard to imagine it from the viewpoint of a Mexican.
[/quote]

So what? Like I said, if I thought it would work, I’d support it. If Mexicans don’t like it, tough shit. They don’t get a say in how we run our internal affairs.

Nor should there be. There aren’t hundreds of thousands of people crossing that border illegally every year.

Every country has the right to defend its borders and to regulate immigration. I’d have a problem if we mined the border, but a fence doesn’t hurt anyone.

39

[QUOTE=John Mace]
So what? Like I said, if I thought it would work, I’d support it. If Mexicans don’t like it, tough shit. They don’t get a say in how we run our internal affairs.

[/QUOTE]

No problem, its your country. Now if Americans would do likewise and leave Mexican affairs to Mexico.

Several months ago a bill passed our legislature that liberalized drug possesion. Under pressure from your government, Fox vetoed it. If you want us to mind our own business, then please mind yours. You can’t have it both ways.

40

[QUOTE=CBEscapee]
No problem, its your country. Now if Americans would do likewise and leave Mexican affairs to Mexico.

Several months ago a bill passed our legislature that liberalized drug possesion. Under pressure from your government, Fox vetoed it. If you want us to mind our own business, then please mind yours. You can’t have it both ways.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but Mexico is our bitch. Sorry, but it is. When Mexico doesn’t have to worry about 500K people sneaking over the border from the US every year, let’s talk.

When 500K Americans (followed by a 10 or 20K Canadians) can’t be stopped from sneaking into Mexico/year and Mexico is paying all our medical care and the quality of Mexico’s medical care is 10X better than ours, and there are lots of Mexican business owners who love to exploit cheap American labor let’s talk as equals.