Boxing with God

There’s no real debate here…just positing an interesting metaphysical/philosophical dilemna.

I’ve always been under the impression that, at least according to doctrine, God, despite His power and seeming omnipotence, needs us as much as we need Him. What if through some unprecedented show of solidarity all of humankind rebelled against God, refused to obey his laws, renounced His authority…you know, sort of like the colonists did to the British.

<tongue in cheek> Perhaps we could demand better living conditions. </tongue in cheek>

So far as the score goes now, it’s God 1, Humans 0. Or did you forget that big flood thing?

Why is it called “boxing” when there are no boxes involved?

But seriously, folks, the OP reminds me of the discussion in The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy of how the Babel Fish, due to it’s obviously intelligently-designed nature, was proof for the non-existence of God.

{b]BDCooper**, you’d better watch yourself: you should know that “your arms are too short to box with God.”

First of all I would like to know how you got out of the airplane and what did you do with all the loot? He He

As to your question/dilemma:

I propose that your scenario is exactly what has happened and continues to happen . Just look around throughout human history. Wars, Crime, Ecological destruction, Disease, Genocide, Slavery, Hate Crimes, Terrorism, Dogs and Cats living together and mass pandemonium. When God created the universe he did not want us to experience those things. Man (Adam & Eve) decided they knew better than God and “punched him right in the nose” by doing exactly what he said not to do.

As a result God removed his protection of them (and by default everyone thereafter) and cursed creation. I would argue that our “living conditions” are a result of our own arrogance in thinking that we could do a better job taking care of our world and ourselves better than he could.

However, it is His love that drives Him to want to have a relationship with us. I would compare it to a parent who still loves their child and wants to be apart of their life regardless of the choices that child makes.

So your right in that there is really no debate, however I believe that you have touched on something more tangible, and real than a simple “metaphysical/philosophical dilemma”.

Thanks for putting up with me for the last minute or so.
Tagg

What big flood thing?

Oh, a minor Sinai valley was flooded in ~3000 BCE, leading to some local flood myths.

Joseph

Tagg wrote:

“If we’re wrong, we go to jail! Peacefully! Quietly! But if we’re right … then you will have saved the lives … of millions … of registered voters.”

Ah, one of the all-time classics.

“Yes it’s true…this man has no dick.”

Back to OP: I have heard this DBCooper. It was the major tenet of an old school religious philosopher and/or writer.
I really wish i could remember the name. Will post if I do.

**
I get that a lot.

**
I’m not speaking of indiscriminate selfishness and thoughtlessness on the part of humankind. For example, when Adam and Eve (let’s just pretend this happened literally) sinned, they weren’t thinking, “Hey, I don’t like the current situation here with this God fella…let’s show Him we can’t be bossed around.” They were just thinking of themselves, that’s all. They were weak.

I’m speaking of a worldwide sit-in, where humanity DEMANDS communication from God if He desires any more obedience on our part. Of course, the concept of God is so hardwired in our brains, for whatever reason, that there would always remain loyalty to Him, but you know what I mean…

Oh, and see? The Celt-eating monster Grendel says that an OLD TIMEY PHILOSOPHER believed sorta the same thing. I knew I wasn’t alone.

Sorry about the easy joke. I am new around here and had to start with something.

The mind of God, being supernatural, is by definition impossible for me or anyone else to comprehend. However, I guess I can throw out a thought or two and see what bounces back.

I guess any answer one would give to this mental exercise would necessarily be based upon ones presuppositions. So Me being a “believer” I would say this:

I tend to believe that God has communicated enough to us. From Genesis, to the Ten Commandments, Jesus (so forth and so on). God wants us to choose to follow him through faith. It would defeat His purpose if he came down out of the clouds (or from wherever he is) and perform whatever acts that would convince an “unbelieving” world that he is real. Anyone who chose to follow Him after such a display would do so without faith. If he wanted that kind of relationship, he could have just created us without the free will to choose Him and avoid the hassle to begin with.

Some of you have noticed that I am a fan of comedies. So to illustrate my point I will bring up an Eddie Murphy movie “Coming to America”. Remember, that his character did not want a women to fall in love with him because he was a prince, he wanted to find a women to fall in love with him for who he is as a person.

If we were to, for arguments sake, agree that there is a God, Then a being of such immense power would probably be unfazed by all us mortal humans throwing a fit and demanding anything from Him. I would imagine it would be like a room of three year olds holding their collective breathe because they want to watch Barney instead of taking a nap. It would be futile, pointless, and “childish” and the daycare worker ultimately owes them no answer. However, we would have to imagine, if we stay within my argument, that if God has truly done the things he has done for us (ie., given us life, sacrifice his son, yada yada) then all we would accomplish with our little act of rebellion would be to break his heart. He still would not “owe” us anymore than what he has given.

If there is no God then I would much rather run around with all the booze and women I could find than sit around with a bunch of protesters. What would be the point? Why not protest and rebel against the Easter Bunny?

I try to keep things light hearted and fun. I hope I have done so here. I invite responses. I really am interested in other points of views on matters such as these.

Tagg

If nobody believes in a deity, it ceases to exist. By definition.

Derleth said:
“If nobody believes in a deity, it ceases to exist. By definition.”

This is, in a glib sort of way, what I was talking about. Did He exist in the first place, however? Perhaps that’s what I’m getting at.

If the Deity really exists than it would continue to exist whether people believed in it or not.

If the Deity does not exist, then it there is nothing to vanish when people stop believing.

either way, people’s belief in the deity has no effect on its existence.

Tagg said:

Why?

I mean, why give us brains to rationally analyze the universe if he just wants us to believe in him no matter what?

David B

AHHH! The $64,000 questions. In short David, I have no idea why.

However, He has never demanded blind faith. I could not have blind faith in anything. In order for our “free will” to be genuine and not “biased” towards Him, it is only logical that he would give us intellegence and curiosity to rationally seek for ourselves the answers in life. I am sure He wants our investigations to lead to Him, but He won’t force anyone believe in Him. We are all free to beleve anything we want. (The consequences or rewards of our beliefs would probably be better discussed in another post but we are all aware of all the different schools of thought.)

A question for you. Why would a universe devoid of any real meaning devlop the ability to “rationally analize itself”? If, for the sake of argument, that humans (or other intelligent life) are the universe’s way to do so?

tagg.

Hi everyone. So far I am enjoying all this. I have never participated in any online forum before and I have to say I really like all the different opinions and thoughts.

I have a question and I hope it does not break any kind of etiquette because that is not what this thread is about so if I do then I apologize in advanced.

How do I insert the quotes from other posts such as you guys do?

Thanks for any help
tagg

“It is scarcely possible to exaggerate the influence of vanity throughout the range of human life from the child of three to the potentate at whose frown the world trembles. Mankind have even committed the impiety of attributing similar desires to the Deity, whom they imagine avid for continual praise.”

-Bertrand Russell

Tagg said:

That is not a meaningful question. I mean, you could have just as easily asked why a universe devoid of any real meaning would develop the ability to have planets.

Humans are not the universe’s way to rationally analyze itself. Humans are just some animals that developed on one planet spinning around one star out of a vast number of stars. I find myself wanting to quote Monty Python’s “The Galaxy Song” here:

“So remember, when you’re feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth;
And pray that there’s intelligent life somewhere out in space,
'Cause there’s bugger all down here on Earth!”

===

For quoting, I recommend that you click on the “vB code” link above the reply text box when you next reply to a message (it’s in the line that says Posts:). You can test your quoting ability in the About The Message Board area.

I do have to tend to believe the Python quote. It does seem hard to find much intelligence down here. 

I agree 100% with your statement about my question. It is completely meaningless if our universe/multi-verse is devoid of meaning and that was my point.

You bringing the subject up would lend me to believe that you would agree that man does indeed have “rational ability” and, possibly you would concur that we have an innate desire to want too understand our universe and ultimately our place in it. Why else would you even bother being in a discussion about it if you did not?

It is this ability and desire and that I am trying to point out is “Special”. For argument sake, I will assume that we are just another animal in the universe not much different from any other. I have a cat. He seems to be at perfect ease with his place in the universe (as long as I keep his litter box clean anyway) and, to the best I can tell never ponders how the universe works. Sometimes he does seem to be pondering the innermost secrets of doorknobs which creeps me out. . However, I am the one here on this message board having this discussion and trying to educate myself on “the secrets of the universe” for lack of a better term. My cat is in the corner licking his butt and could care less about the topic of our thread… Now I have seen several Gary Larson cartoons that seem to suggest that cows have this ability, and although I cant prove him wrong I do think that they just eat, sleep, lay wonderful minefields and moo.

Biologically I will admit that we may be a product of forces and processes that shape the universe no more or less than a bug, monkey or E.T. However, I would argue that these processes fail to explain why we have developed these “special” abilities. What purpose would they serve? Wouldn’t both of our “survival/existence be better served “gathering berries for the upcoming winter rather than having such a “silly”, albeit fun, conversation?

Of course you know how I believe and you have no doubt had it crammed down your throat by some very overzealous peers of mine (I apologize for them to all reading this thread). I would state this ability and desire are God given for reasons that I shared with the OP. Admittedly, I am biased to my presuppositions but we all are. It’s a human thing. That’s why I am having a lot of fun on this message board.

As the Python song would predict I find it hard to find people that I can have such conversations with in my everyday life. Of course no one ever accused me of being intelligent either. 