Suddenly I’m beginning to feel that my experience in the BSA was far less conservative than the norm. I am an athiest, and was fairly outspoken about it at the time, and I made it to Eagle with no problems.
While I was in it, on Sundays of big gatherings there would be a religious service called “Scout’s Own”: a non-denominational service of psalms and songs. My troop by itself was far too apathetic to care, but we had to attend anyway at things like Camp-O-Ree. The non-Christian members of our troop would quietly complain to our (Jewish) Scoutmaster about how “non-denominational” referred only to Christians, so he’d let us sit at the back and quietly play cards as long as we didn’t bother the others. Sometimes during the week-long official camps in summer there would be a prayer before meals, but you didn’t have to say it.
You didn’t have to be religious at all to attain ranks. Before reaching a (non-eagle) rank, you would go before 3 other boys who would make sure you’d fulfilled all the requirements and throw some easy questions at you. To “What does reverent mean to you?” I’d always say “Holding tue to your own beliefs and respecting those of others.” I never had a problem.
As for an attitude towards homosexuality, well… You have here upwards of 25 kids ages 12-18 camping for up to a week, changing clothes together, swimming, and various other forms of physical contact. You’re going to hear some jokes. But here I must be honest and again say that I think my troop was different from norm, for I never heard any actual slurs, only jokes such as “Wake up and get out of your tent! What the hell are you doing in there?” “Getting dressed!” “Why you both undressed?” Snickers from others in earshot.
Not the most caring of atmospheres, but I doubt you could get anything that tame at any public school.
I’d like to think that being in the Scouts has affected me in a positive way, and I certainly didn’t find the troop I was in a restrictive environment. However, I do know that the s.o.p. for the BSA as a whole was different. Was I just lucky? I hope not.
Hey, will everyone who keeps thinking that the BSA is federal or state funded, please check your facts. The BSA gets no federal or state funding. And it gets only very isolated instances of local government funding.
funding = $$$, not the occasional use of federal or state facilities.
Well, so long as the BSA is saying they are in effect a private religious organization, I don’t think they should be getting governmental funding at all. As for the use of facilities, it depends. Certainly, a public meeting space may be accessible to any group that signs up, including the local atheist group or Christian society. However, if the BSA is a private religiously-based group, they shouldn’t get preferential treatment in access to taxpayer-funded facilities.
—Suddenly I’m beginning to feel that my experience in the BSA was far less conservative than the norm.—
Like I’ve been saying: there’s a big difference between the National BSA and the local troops. It’s sort of like a franchise in a way: you get all the rights to the logos, the official membership, the secret ingredients, and set up your own troop. Generally, how you run it is sort of up to you, within certain standards. Sometimes those standards are given lots of leeway, sometimes only a little. I think the real sad thing here is that local troops thought they had, or were used to having, more leeway than it turned out they did. In fact, in a certain way these major cases have made things worse. When it wasn’t a big national hubbub, local troops that knew that certain leaders or scouts were gay but were okay with that simply kept quiet. Now there’s all this scrutiny.
Many troops apparently ARE breaking away: there was even talk of the whole Mass. division making their own more inclusive policy, with the national BSA threatening them with explusion if they did. I’m not sure how that all turned out, actually…
Even when I was a boyscout back in the Jurassic, it was an organization that was the American version of the Hitler Youth. If we had political affiliations, Democrats would not have been allowed to join.
My well meaning parents forced me to join Boy Scouts. This was my first experience with a draft. Not as bad as the real one.
After reading the thread, I conclude that Libertarian is inaccurately characterizing the debate. The correct analogy would be:
Jane is having a pajama party, she has invited Cindy, Laurie, Candy and Ruth. Meanwhile, Linda, the lesbian teenager down the street, has not been invited because she is a sinner. Linda is lamenting Jane’s bigotry and wondering why the high school principal went to Jane’s party and complimented her on her high morals. Linda wishes she could be friends with the rest of the girls and join in the fun.
I don’t think asking about the “higher power” bit would serve any purpose. Their proffered concept of “higher power” is empty and incoherent even to them: but it’s all about making sure they can get kids to jump through hoops: make a due defference to their wishes, even if only symbolic. Again, ridiculous, but it’s their game to play.
The Boy Scouts has done very well for itself by posing as a public organization. If they want to destroy that image, it’s their right.
Ok, Arnold Winkelried, so that’s the situaiton. So? The proper answer is STILL not the government forcing Cindy to give up the right to hold parties and invite who she wants, or a high school principal to have, outside of the job, her own opinions. The proper answer is for Linda and those who reject Cindy’s bigotry to hold their own pajama party, and for Linda and those who think Cindy is a dipshit to speak up about it.
Just because something is wrong, and even just because you think it should be changed, is no reason to think that all means of trying to change it are justified.
Given that the federal charter confers no specific benefit, and is merely a mark of recognition for a charitable or patriotic group, I do not support the removal of the BSA federal charter.
Isn’t that what this thread is about? People who think Cindy is a dipshit, speaking up about it?
One solution would be, as you say, for Linda to have her own pajama party. What’s wrong with another solution: attempting to teach Cindy that she’s wrong to be a bigot, and asking Cindy’s friends to try to convince her that she should allow Linda at her party?
What if the high school principal allows Cindy to use the school cafeteria to have her party, knowing that Cindy has invited everyone except the gay/lesbian kids at school? (Another issue being discussed in this thread.) Would it be OK for Linda to ask the principal to not allow Cindy to have her party in the cafeteria?
From the small amount of reading I’ve been doing the answer may be yes. The Boy Scouts seem to accept people of any faith, you just gotta have faith. (I am soooo gonna burn for that one)
I’m not sure exactly where this debate has drifted. The OP basically started out as the Boy Scouts vs. atheism. Homosexuality has entered the fray but I’ll try to confine this to the religion issue. No real opinions here but I’ll throw in a few things for information’s sake. Here is a list of Federally Chartered Organizations.
From some reason I don’t think this is the most current BSA Application as I think I have seen one that does ask about religious beliefs but this form makes no real mention of religion. In one place it says
Many troops are chartered by churches but many of the scouts don’t go to those churches (or any church). This means that if you are a member of a troop that is chartered by a religious organization you don’t have to be a member of that particular religious organization or participate in its activities.
Here is the Eagle Scout Application that basically asks for a ‘religious reference’ but no additional statement of religious affiliation.
From my own experience in the scouts I can only echo what many have stated above. ‘Official’ policy and daily operations are often two different things. In 25+ years involved with scouting at a variety of levels I’ve never seen anyone kicked out for being an atheist…never even heard it being discussed. It does seem that at the national level the BSA has chosen to make an issue out of this but at the local level even ‘don’t ask don’t tell’ seems to be overstating thing. It is just not an issue, period.
A bit on the BSA’s finances. No real mention of sources of income but it is at least an overview.
<cheap shot>It seems the Blue Star Mothers of America still happily discriminate on the basis of sex. Shouldn’t we also be attacking them for their malicious and hate filled sexism?</cheap shot>(right…you were warned)
Opengrave, you may burn for that “Gotta Have Faith” thing, but you’ll have to wait in line. During the pedophile priests stuff, a shock jock I usually don’t listen to but happened to hit playing “radio roulette” with my car radio’s seek button said that he wanted to dedicate a song to all those altar boys and little girls that had been molested.
At first, I thought that for once he was going to do something decent. Then he put on the song – George Michael’s “Father Figure”!!
Opengrave, one battle of a time. Organizations that “discriminate” based on sex by are part of a wider cultural outlook in the USA that supposes fundamental differences between men and women.
For example, I personally think it’s silly and dated to split up scouting in two groups, one for young boys and one for young girls, (what would be so terrible with boys and girls going out camping together?) but trying to convince the general public in the USA to combine both in one organization would be IMHO much more difficult than trying to get them to accept atheists.
I pciture some Christians’ face growing bright red with fury and beating the snot out of some nine year old kid for figuring this out 4 decades earlier.
