I feel bad for the Boy Scouts

Great Debates
1

One Trick Pony boy here again…

The New York City school system has decided not to renew their contracts with the Boy Scouts when they terminate, won’t sponsor troops, and won’t allow them to recruit. The article is here.

This has already been debated back and forth and several (now dead) threads are in Great Debates about it, but I just wanted to make the news known. On the one hand, it’s a shame that the boys in New York won’t have easy access to scouting, which is, IMHO, a good experience (in general - I certainly don’t agree with their discriminatory stance by any means); on the other, it’s encouraging to see large institutions like a city school system take a stand for something they believe in and, in a way, seeing the BSA pay the price for their own stand (and kudos to them, however misguided they may be, for sticking to their guns, although I wonder how long it’ll take before they realize their bigotry really hurts them and the kids involved).

Whatever. It’s mundane and pointless.

{neigh}

Esprix

2

Interesting.

As both a former NYC Board Of Education employee, and a former NYC Boy Scout, I never knew the two were intertwined.

I was in Scouting over 15 years ago, and at that time there were no questionable practices going on (as far as I knew). I don’t condone anything discriminatory, but the Boy Scouts do provide invaluable knowledge that will serve you for a lifetime. It’s more than just tying knots and building fires. (I had several occasions as an adult where I was damn glad I learned first aid and cpr.)

It’s a shame that this may prevent some kids from gaining similar knowledge.

3

“Pony boy, pony boy, oh you one-trick pony boy,
Don’t say no, off we go—right across the plains!
Marry me, carry me, right away with you—
Giddy-up, giddy-up, giddy-up—whoa! My pony boy!”

That having been sung . . . I would have no problem with the Boy Scouts if they were honest and said flat-out, “We are a religious organization and you have to be a practicing Christian and heterosexual to belong.” It’s all this hypocritical pussy-footing around about being “inclusive” that ticks me off.

4

There are organizations other than the Boy Scouts, like Boys and Girls Club of America, Big Brothers, etc. It is a shame to lose an organization, though, when there are so many kids that need help. I find it fascinating, however, that the Girl Scouts have no ban on homosexuals. I guess lesbians are less threatening or something. :rolleyes:

“Pony boy, pony boy, oh you one-trick pony boy…”

What **is **your one trick, Esprix? Is it really dirty? :wink:

5

As an Eagle Scout, I have this to say…

I don’t feel sorry for them at all.

I agree that they’re a private organization, and I agree with the Supreme Court ruling telling them they’re free to discriminate as they see fit. However, I simply don’t agree with their particular stance on the issue.

First, the BSA is not supposed to be a Christian organization. Unfortunately, it, like much of America, is dominated by Christians. While it technically is inclusive of all religions, I suspect you’d be hard-pressed to find many troops sponsored by a mosque. (I went to the National Jamboree in 1993; I don’t recall meeting or seeing a single Scout or leader who was Muslim. I’m sure they exist, but not in huge quantities.) And that’s just a for-instance, of course. There are other religions which are underrepresented.

What I think is notable is that many of the more liberal Protestant religions take a less vehement stand on homosexuality; notably, I know a Lutheran intern pastor who is a lesbian. I think the stand of the BSA that “they are a religious organization” has nothing to do with their stand on homosexuality, when it comes down to it. For some reason, they feel they need to discriminate against the only group of people against whom it is still politically possible to discriminate.

(Aside: If the BSA had said “We’re a private organization; therefore we can exclude black people,” would they have any members right now?)

I think the backlash against them is perfectly correct. I hope that the loss of support from the community will cause them to see their errors and allow gay men and women to be leaders.

But I doubt it will.

LL <-- Eagle class of '96

6

I’m curious where you heard that, Eve. My understanding is that BSA members have to believe in God… they don’t necessarily have to be christian. I’m also curious as to why you think that they are pussy footing around this particular issue when the BSA have stated that you have to believe in God all along (It’s in the Scout Oath!).

Again, just curious.

7

Eve, have I mentioned lately that I worship the ground you walk on? :wink:

CeeJayTee, check out this thread if you want the story.

And Dragwyr, I think you misread her post - she said she would have no problem if they were to say that, but instead they pull a run-around actually saying it by saying, you have to believe in God and you can’t be gay, all the while trying to prove they’re somehow “inclusive,” which really, they aren’t.

Esprix

8

A good friend who’s smarter than myself, and was at one time a scout himself (I don’t know if he still is), put it this way:
People don’t join the Scouts for the sex. So who cares if there are gay Scouts?

9

As much as I disagree with the BSA’s opinions on the evils of homosexuality and would never allow my son to belong to an organizations that discriminates in such a way, I don’t think we should be trying to force the BSA to adopt a more inclusive policy. Their policy has remained unchanged for many years. It is only recently that it has gained such attention. But the fact remains that there are plenty of people who join and support their organization because of their policies. And they should continue to do so.

I also think it is high time that they give up the perks they have enjoyed over the years while pretending to be a public, inclusive organization.

I am of the opinion that before too long there will be an alternative for more open-minded families who wish to give their sons the benefits of scouting. Either one or more of the now-existing organizations will grow and expand to fill in this lack or a new organization will form.

In any case, my sympathies go most to the young boys who are stuck now with no other real option.

10

Just wondering
Why do you think that the boy scouts should endorce a sexual lifestyle.
No one is asking them to endorse pre marital sex.
As a matter of fact it probably helps curtail adolescent and teen sexual problems.
No one is endorcing coed sleeping quarters.
But the gay lifestyle may get in the way because, well, of what it is.

11

Pardon me for being blunt–but just because I’m gay doesn’t mean that my cock is gonna fly out of control just because I’d be surrounded by a buncha other boys. If a kid can’t keep his hormones in his pants and take on a little responsibility–than he’s not a very good Scout. Either straight or gay.

(or bisexual. Bisexuals don’t get enough attention in our straight/gay world.)

12

justwannano—I don’t think anyone here feels the Boy Scouts should be forced to admit gays or atheists. What most of us feel, though, is that they’ve been publicizing themselves for nearly a century as a terrific outdoors club for ALL boys, and getting a free ride because of that. What they really are is a right-wing religious organization, and they should just admit that and be done with it.

13

Agreed - no one should force them to change their polices, as the USSC has ruled they are a private organization. But they can’t have their cake and eat it, too, and that’s exactly what the NYC school district said - if you’re a private organization, you don’t get the perks of a public one. Can’t have or be both.

Need we get into the teen sexual problems gay and lesbian youth have? I think that might be served better for another thread (and perhaps someone more knowledgable than myself, such as our own queer youth matt_mcl, might be able to speak to the issue better than I).

Yet another thread (although I am quick to ask, “What, exactly, do you think it is?” but I digress). Might I recommend clicking on any of the links in my sig line for further enlightenment, if you are so inclined.

Esprix

14

I find it, shall I say, odd, that BSA no longer allows a UU religious medal. Not for the miinor fact that for UUs God is potional. But because we do not condemn, and actually celebrate, gay unions.

And, I thank that wholesome American organization for much of what I learned about drinking and drugs in my pre-teens/early teens. To paraphrase American Pie, “What did you think we did at scout camp?!” Never got fucked in the ass by a scout leader or fellow scout, but we sure had some high old times!

15

Dinsdale, the exchange in its entirety between the UUA and the BSA is on the http://www.uua.org website. Suffice it to say the matters involving Atheists and gay scouts both caused both the UUA to withdraw their support and the BSA to withdraw the UU religious merit badge. The whole situation is shameful.

Esprix

16

On the subject of religion, I’m nominally Lutheran, but I joined a Mormon Scout Group. So monotheism may be required, but Christianity is not.

Never met any Muslim or Jewish troups, though.

17

Hi Eve,

I hate to take issue with you, because we editors should stick together, but I had to respond to this.

I’m Libertarian–conservative on some issues, liberal on others. I feel there’s a problem in casting an organization that doesn’t line up exactly with one’s philosophy as “right-wing” (or, conversely, “left-wing”) when that may not necessarily be the case. For example, one person could look at my stance on abortion and say I’m right wing; another could look at my stance on marijuana use and say I’m left wing. Both would be wrong.

When you cast a middle-of-the-road organization like the Boy Scouts as right wing, what then of G. Gordon Liddy? The John Birch Society? The term begins to lose meaning, in addition to alienating a lot of very moderate people who may agree with you on many issues while still supporting the right of the Boy Scouts to set their own rules.

I don’t have children, so the issue doesn’t really apply to me, but for better or worse a LOT of parents would agree with this. Parents who desire to protect their kids are not always rational. A lot of parents would not want their young sons to be camping unsupervised with a gay man. A lot of parents would not like their young daughters camping unsupervised with a straight man (and my understanding, which could be wrong, is that the ban is against gay scout leaders, not against gay scouts). True, these people’s perceptions may not line up with reality, but for a lot of people perceptions are reality.

The Boy Scouts have ALWAYS been out there saying they believe in God and want their members to be morally straight; this isn’t a stance they just dreamed up last week. I think they as a private organization have a right to feel that way, regardless of how I feel about that. As soon as government has the right to sanction private organizations based on beliefs they may disagree with, how long until they sanction the Catholic Church for their abortion stance, the Amish for their separatism from the government, etc.? It’s a slippery slope.

As for participation in schools, I think what NYC is doing is sad. A lot of boys will be denied an educational experience the schools cannot replicate. On the other hand, I would totally support any scouting organization that wanted to do away with the religious or heterosexual requirements. What’s next? When they do field trips to the art museums in the city, should they force the students not to look at the religious art, for fear of offense?

I don’t believe in coercion; for example, I don’t believe in forced prayer in schools. However, no one is forcing a boy into the Scouts or forcing students who disagree with the Scouts to support them. It seems to me that tolerance and diversity applies also to those who would support the scouts–they have a right to their opinions and their positions and those should not be squelched by the government or government institutions. That’s what the First Amendment is built on.

I hope this doesn’t open a can of worms. I enjoy so many of your posts, Eve, and I understand this issue is really important to you. I just can’t see, in the vast continuum of say, Rage Against the Machine on the left and G. Gordon Liddy on the right, how the Boy Scouts can fairly be painted as a right-wing religious organization (not to mention the fabulous job they do maintaining many of the bst hiking trails in Missouri).

18

Funny not one of you responders understood what I asked.

Since being gay is about sex,and scouting is about male children why do you feel that you should bring sex into the picture.
Ashtar
You are blunt but YOU and that attitude are the problem.

19

Funny you don’t understand, justwannano, but being gay is not simply “about sex.” Being heterosexual is as much “about sex” as being gay is, but I ain’t running around looking for cute little girlies to pork. Can anyone give this man a copy of the TRB rant from “Glad to be Gay”?

An individual’s sexuality does not necessarily imply pedophilia. I suspect most gays, (and I hope most heteros) would think their sexuality is simply irrelevant to any relationship they might have to children as a teacher, scout leader, coach, etc.

[Edited by Lynn Bodoni on 12-06-2000 at 11:26 PM]

20

They are a private organization, and don’t need to justify their actions to anyone.
Acceptance of perversion, explicit or implicit, runs counter to the very fabric of what they stand for and teach.
As for being a country ‘dominated’ by Christians, I suggest a checking of history; this country was founded by Christians, and predicated on biblical principles; which isn’t to say others aren’t welcome, but they should recognize the predominant value set, as I would expect to recognize one of another culture. If this is not acceptable to anyone, they are free to leave. I have had it with political correctness, beyond a healthy respect for others.
All that I see any more is people yammering about tolerance, but it seems to be a one way street, and anyone who doesn’t kowtow to the latest self-named downtrodden at the expense of their own beliefs are labeled bigots.
Wake up people; you’re all for your rights, but I hear precious little about your responsibilities.
We are by no means perfect as a nation, but we are the best thing going, by any yardstick you care to use.
Maybe, just maybe, our founding fathers did something right?