No, but I never suggested that as a course of action. Poking and prodding people into the right direction is a fight strategy.
Further, the goal here isn’t (or shouldn’t be) just to FIGHT bigotry; it should be to VANQUISH bigotry, and you don’t vanquish bigotry by clearing the field to allow the bigots more influence.
If an organization can only exist by being propped up by bigots, then maybe it is time for the organization to stop existing?
Bigots need their clubs too. BSA could cut a sponsorship deal with GOP leadership.
dupe
A lot of organizations are propped up by bigots, not because they embrace bigotry, but because there just so damn many of them.
Most organizations have the luxury of ignoring bigotry, they can do just about whatever they want, hire gay people, recognize gay marriage, embrace transsexual rights, etc., and the bigots just go right on giving them money to keep the business afloat.
The BSA has no such luxury. As I mentioned above, the BSA said “we’re not going to prohibit gay leadership anymore” and lost 20% of their customers. Can you think of any other organization that has made a morality based business change in the face of this sort of financial risk? Most businesses would see an instant 20% drop in revenues as a bit of a catastrophe, and do whatever it takes to avoid it.
You can reasonably think that the BSA was too slow to change, but don’t kid yourself into thinking that bigot’s money doesn’t prop up just about every organization you know about.
So let it burn.
It was explained above that the purpose of the scouts is to “teach them character, leadership, and important life skills.“ You cannot pursue this goal while holding back from opposing bigotry for fear of losing the support of bigots.
I’ll be sure to bring this up to my son’s Scoutmaster. How the fine print of the BSA’s rules prevents him, and the other adults in the Troop, from teaching character and leadership to the boys in the Troop.
I’m sure he’ll be surprised to learn that the process of giving young men responsibility, teaching them skills, encouraging them to support their community, it’s all for naught, because some Troop in Bumfuck that meets in the basement of Bumfuck Church can exclude folks who don’t follow the tenets of Bumfuck Church.
It’s a bummer too. My son’ is on his way to earning his Citizenship badge, is planning to help an Eagle candidate build a Sensory Room at the local YMCA, and might get to be assistant patrol leader next year. Too bad for him he can’t learn anything about character and leadership, can’t learn important life skills, because National BSA is too slow in embracing change.
On the plus side, he’ll have more time to play Fortnite.
Yeah, because that’s the choice. Boy Scouts or Fortnite. Nothing else exists.
Sorry, what was that, I can’t hear your praise; it’s very faint.
And yet it’s still going bankrupt from all the lawsuits. Sounds like they maybe shoulda pivoted a little sooner.
Interesting that you’re commenting on the flippant aside as opposed to whether or not the fine print of the BSA’s policies prevents the men and women who actually work with Scouts from teaching those young men something useful.
And, while the choice isn’t actually Fortnite or Scouts, I’d be lucky to find another worthwhile activity that he is similarly enthusiastic about.
This is me not disagreeing with you. There’s a lot of room between thinking they should have been far better than they were, and thinking we should burn the whole thing down.
People bashing the Boy Scouts are pretty clueless.
Most of the churches I know that sponsor troops, tend to be pretty liberal so I dont think they would be to “bigoted” against gays.
Well, I for one couldn’t be more delighted to discover how clueless I am. This being the case, you obviously agree that there’s absolutely no reason why the BSA should not adopt national policies that prohibit anti-LGBT discrimination and mandate tolerance and diversity.
Disagree with your first line, but saw your second point in action…
In fact, the church that sponsored our scout troop kicked us out because of the national BSA record in regards to abuse and LGBTQs (I’ve never been more proud to have been a Congregationalist).
My troop when I was a kid had a couple of gay leaders who cared about the kids so much that the concept of them being a negative influence is laughable. They probably started our radicalization toward acceptance (NOT taught at home for most of us midwestern small-town boys).
fast forward 35 years…
My son’s troop was filled with parents, leaders, boys (and a few girls) that vehemently opposed the policies of the BSA board. One dad, a lawyer, drafted a kickass manifesto that we and other troops signed. Due to his research, we found out that it really came down to five members of the national board who were viciously anti-gay. They controlled some very lucrative Mormon purse strings, and we were told that there’d be change, but not until they died.
Our manifesto stated that we were going to ignore any policies that were anti-gay, anti-trans, anti-nurturing, or anti-inclusion (we added “Just like almost every Boy Scout troop had been doing for decades, whether the national leadership wants to admit it or not”).
We got no flack for it. The local council winked and said if there was pushback from the board, the council would promise to look into it, which they would do when they had the time, could be years…
My stance has always been: I loved my time in the scouts, and my son’s, but if they die they brought it upon themselves. I just wish there were equivalent adventure organizations. So many of us would NOT have had those opportunities… (Almost none of those families of lawyers/bankers/IT techs are going to spend their precious vacation time mounting Wilderness Mountaineering Survival Challenges).
As a parent of two young boys, I have struggled with many of the arguments laid out here, and see merit to both sides. Ultimately I decided to interpret the explicitly religious aspect of the Scout code as ceremonial deism and work within my non-religious pack as a den leader to attempt to mold the organization from within. I have not seen any signs of bigotry or religious pressure, but I have no doubt it exists, particularly in religiously-affiliated troops. We leave the Duty to God adventure (the requirements of which were posted up-thread for Wolves) entirely to the families - we don’t touch it at all within the den.
I signed the Religious Declaration as required, with the understanding that it explicitly allows any definition for God, including a secular humanist one. I confirmed this with pack leadership prior to signing the statement. If challenged by council I will present my definition and let the chips fall where they may.
I maintain hope that eventually BSA will outlaw LGBTQ discrimination in all troops and packs, but am willing to work within the organization (obviously only in troops or packs that do not discriminate) until that happens. Perhaps that is an immoral decision… but I think the lack of other leadership/service organization options for the 20+ boys that I am helping outweighs the (relatively minor) support I am providing to an organization that allows bigoted churches to be bigoted.
Who’s we, you got a mouse in your pocket? The BSA did this to themselves. They sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind and I don’t feel particularly sorry for them.
I think the problem that the Boy Scouts find themselves in with regard to gay leaders, is that while gay rights has made great strides, gut level homophobia is still endemic is difficult to root out. Just like back a few decades ago you had people who said they liked blacks and supported civil rights but wouldn’t want their daughter to marry a black man, you have people who support gay rights and gay marriage and think that most gays are probably fine people but wouldn’t want them in charge of their boys on a camping trip. Yes this is bigoted and homophobic, but it is also widely held. Pretending it isn’t an issue, or that it will go away if we shun people who believe this is not going to work.
As others have said, religion and homophobia don’t really enter the day to day activities of the Boy Scouts. There is about as much indoctrination into homophobia into by the Boy Scouts as there is indoctrination into Satanism by Dungeons and Dragons. Overall I think the organization a net positive and has helped many more boys than it has harmed. Glorying at the destruction of any organization that is unable to maintain the Liberal ideal is not actually good for humanity. You may cheer as a Catholic homeless shelter or food pantry is shut down. One fewer outlet for the bigots! But that is cold comfort to those out on the street who relied on it.
Sure I wish we lived in a country where the vast majority of people were tolerant of every lifestyle, but getting there will take time, and until we reach that point a purity test may not be our best course of action.
digs said:
I think it may have been here on the SDMB that I first heard about the Mormon connection to/influence on BSA. (I certainly never heard anything about a Mormon connection when I was involved in Scouts during the 70’s through very early 90’s.) Does anyone know when that started?
I don’t know many details. The former Mormon church president, Thomas S. Monson (died 2018) was the longest serving member of the Nation Executive Board. Here
Historically, the highest percentage of Mormons in scouting was 33% so it makes sense to have a lot of Mormons in the leadership.
Monson died in January, 2018 and the LDS church made the announcement to separate from scouting in May, 2018. The new president, Russell M. Nelson, made a number of other sweeping changes, including pushing to eliminate the usage of the name “Mormon.” The church had taken steps earlier to distance themselves. Cite.