Brake problem (is there a mechanic in the house?)

Factual Questions
1

My apoligies for the length… I have a 95 Chrysler Cirrus. The brake pedal went to the floor about 2 weeks ago, so I took a look at everything I knew that may cause the problem… I found no brake fluid leaks, the pads and shoes seemed ok, so I figured there must be an internal leak in the master cylinder. My brother, who is a mechanic (unfortunately out of state), told me that given my description, it sounded like it to him. So I took it to a garage to have it diagnosed and fixed. Sure enough, I was told the M.C. was leaking internally and that replacing it was all that was necessary.

After getting the M.C. replaced (and some new rear brake shoes installed) the brakes seemed fine… for about a week. Last saturday, the brake pedal once again went to the floor. I took it in to the same guy, figuring that the M.C. he installed was bad. Not the problem, he says… in fact, he can’t find any problem except for the fact that I seem to have a lot of air in my brake lines, near the front calipers.

He said that somehow, air is leaking in to the lines, and he has seen this before. He said that the front calipers can create a vacuum that will draw air in, but not leak any fluid. There is no way to check this other than to change the parts… but he’s pretty confident that this is what the problem is… ($$$$ cha-ching!)

I’m boned. I can’t really do anything, since I need brakes to stop the car, so I tell him to go ahead… after all of this work, (and over $900 total), I’m still not confident that this won’t happen again. The brakes are stopping the car right now, but I’m so paranoid every time I hit the brake pedal, that I can’t tell if the pedal is getting softer or if it’s my imagination. I think I’m wigging out.

Anyhow, does this make sense to anyone out there? He tried to explain to me how the system could be taking in air without losing fluid, but I really didn’t understand it. If air is coming into the system, shouldn’t the fluid get displaced? If so, then I should be seeing a rise in my fluid level in the M.C. reservoir… which I didn’t.

Anyone out there a mechanic or knows one that could help me out here? I have a bad feeling that I’m not going to have this problem solved and will be back in the shop again. The only thing at this point to change on the system is the brake lines and the rear pistons, and he claims that he has never seen the pistons do this and he thinks the brake lines are alright. I feel like I’m now stuck with this mechanic because 1) all of the parts are covered under his warranty and if the parts are bad, he has to replace them, and 2) he has seen the car too many times in the past 2 weeks, and I’m not sure it would make sense to start over with someone else. After all, all that’s left to replace is the lines and rear pistons… then it’s all his.

I really don’t know what to think. Is this guy doing his best to solve my problem or is he just guessing? I feel like I’m getting screwed (well, it’s kind of hard not to feel this way, given all that’s happened.) However, it could also be that he really doesn’t know and he’s doing his best to solve it.

I am depressed. After $900, those brakes shouldn’t even need my foot to stop the damn car.

Thanks,
Max

2

I’m always nervous after a car repair. If a shop does it, I think I was screwed; if I did it, that I messed up.

It’s hard to say “you were screwed” not knowing car repair to the detail that the mechanics do.

I’ve had one shop do something (repair some electrical problems), then a week later something else goes completely haywire. (A second shop found the tip of a screwdriver broken off in my ignition switch, which was killing the engine at very inopportune times.)

I always remember the Aamco commercial where a garage mechanic says he can’t work on a transmission, then his dim-witted assistant (who’s been in the background being fascinated by a garden hose valve) says, “I always wanted to work on a transmission, boss!” shudder

When I do need professional work done, I go to a nationwide chain (NTB, Midas, Firestone). That gives me the comfort that I can complain to a higher power if the shop does substandard work. So far, they haven’t let me down. But if I go to Joe’s Garage of Hoboken, NJ, I don’t get that warm fuzzy feeling.

3

I would check to make sure the front brake calipers are installed on the correct spindles. If you put the left caliper on the right wheel, it may fit and work, but the brake bleeder valve, which lets air escape, would not be at the topmost part of the caliper, and would not let all the air escape.

I was a mechanic for ten years, and still do some side work. (I’m now an accountant; go figure.) I have never seen brakes mysteriously pull air into the brake lines. If the brakes could conceivably pull air into the lines, the displaced fluid would have to go somewhere; I would imagine the fluid would leak out at the same place the air is coming in. I would again suspect the brake calipers, wheel cylinders, or a loose fitting in a line or tube. If the rubber brake lines are soft and mushy, they could be culprit. Brake fluid leaks are generally easy to spot, as brake fluid is somewhat corrosive, and will make painted finishes bubble and crackle.

Good Luck! And keep us posted.

4

I would bleed the lines first, but with air in the lines the brakes should work, but slowly go down toward the floor. Pumping the pedal should bring it back up. The story about air being sucked in sould like bull crap. Could the problem be with the booster behind the master cylinder. Does your car have one of those??

michael

5

I always check the fluid in that fluid reservior. Are you positively sure it never went down at all? Also, a light on the dash usually goes on if fluid is low.

6

Thanks for the input, everyone.

I don’t know about the booster (or if my car has one). But I am going over there today and speak with the mechanic that did the work. I want him to go on a ride with me and test the brakes. Seems to me that they are working, but in my mind the pedal is still sinking too far before you can feel the brakes grab. Maybe that’s just the way with this car, but the weird thing is, I just can’t remember how far my foot went down when things were working normally. The way I see it, as soon as my foot hits the pedal, the brakes should be engaged and the car should slow. I shouldn’t have to push it very far to feel resistance (assuming the shoes and pads are adjusted correctly.)

I just got off the phone with the owner, and he tried to explain the vacuum again. I asked him why, if I’m drawing air into the lines, and I don’t have any leaks, that I’m not seeing a fluid level increase in my M.C. He said the amount of air that is needed to cause the problem is not much and that it’s unlikely that I’d see any difference.

He also said he checked the lines and things looked good there. My guess is that if they were bad, he would have replaced them and happily charged me for them. I feel like I’m being a pain in the ass to this guy, but I figure for the cash I’ve given him, he can humor me.

Mikerizer… my guess is that the calipers are on correctly. They were never replaced until two days ago, so if they were installed incorrectly, it was done at the factory.

Max

7

Did this happen after using the brakes for a long period of time?

Click and Clack often say that if the brakes overheat, that the fluid can boil and cause the symptoms you are having. If the Calipers were dragging, it may have been enough to heat the thing sufficiently to boil the fluid. Changing the Calipers may have fixed the problem.

8

this happened after the course of normal driving. No long trips, just typical day-to-day stuff. Interesting note from Click and Clack, however. Maybe that WAS happening, but I guess there is no way to prove it. Perhaps the caliper replacement did the trick. Time will tell.

I just got back from the place, and the owner took the car for a test drive with me. He said that the hydraulics are working fine now, (as far as he could tell), but there did seem to be some “slop” in the rear brakes. He said that he would re-adjust the rear brakes for me (and “it won’t cost anything” !!!) and he thinks that will get rid of the play I still feel in the pedal.

Friday morning I take it in… I’ll keep you all posted. And please keep your fingers crossed for me… I can’t take this any more!

9

Max, if you have anti-lock brakes, the pedal is supposed to go to the floor. Unnerving isn’t it?

10

They are anti-lock brakes, handy… but the pedal shouldn’t go to the floor unless the anti-lock kicks in, right?

11

The first thing to do is check your insurance policy. If you’ve got full coverage, send it over a cliff. I’m sure the $500 deductable will be much less than the final cost of this repair, or possibly an accident. Good Luck!

12

Thanks, Humer.

I guess Friday will be an interesting day. The pedal is getting softer by the day. I should NOT be able to push the pedal to the floor, even if I want to… and yet, I can.

I was driving home this morning after a late night at work… and I had to hit the brakes hard at a yellow light. And my foot went almost to the floor. Don’t give me that crap about tightening up the rear brakes a couple of clicks. Friday, Mr. Mechanic is going to humor me by taking the car for another ride, and then he’s going to check the lines for air. If he finds it, my guess is that I’m going to get really pissed. I can’t believe that if the rear brakes are out of adjustment by a click or two that the result is what I’m feeling in the pedal.

Mother fuck…

So another question. If he DOES find air, am I obligated to pay him for the last repair (i.e. the new calipers and shoes?) This was supposed to fix my problem. If it doesn’t, what is my obligation to pay?

Shit shit shit.

13

‘They are anti-lock brakes, handy… but the pedal shouldn’t go to the floor unless the anti-lock kicks in,
right?’
haha, no, they SHOULD go to the floor. Yep, thats what makes them work. Honest. There was a lot of press about this, people would pump the pedal & that turns off the anti-lock feature. You push it to the floor to get it to work. Believe me, I don’t want that feature as you can see its very unnerving. Read the car manual if you can, it should tell you all you need to know. That’s why it costs so much too.

But then the stupid mechanics should have told you this first.

14

“After getting the M.C. replaced (and some new rear brake shoes installed)…”

Were the rear brake cylinders replaced/rebuilt at this time? If not, why not?

Often, a leaky master cylinder will begin leaking down during light braking, but hold when you stomp on the pedal. This makes me question whether the M/C was bad.

I kinda wonder if the mechanic “shotgunned” this one, that he figured that it was either a leaky master cylinder or a sticking rear adjuster (on the assumption that you might not notice the lack of rear brakes except during hard braking), and he just addressed the most likely causes without doing a lot of troubleshooting. Granted, I don’t really know the situation, but, whether the work was necessary or not, I feel for your wallet.
“He said that somehow, air is leaking in to the lines, and he has seen this before. He said that the front calipers can create a vacuum that will draw air in, but not leak any fluid…”

Like everyone else said, wouldn’t this make the brakes spongy all the time? (I’ve wondered about whether this could happen when I was bleeding brakes, but it was more on the lines of “Where the !@#$% is all this air coming from???”)
FYI (for anyone who’s interested), On most cars, the brake master cylinder and booster (if any) are on the firewall in the engine compartment, just above the brake pedal.
Here’s a couple of pictures of a brake master cylinder and booster:
http://www.jimpiatt.com/graphics/brake_booster.jpg

and a drawing:
http://www.familycar.com/images/Brake_Booster.gif

The booster was never bad. The booster uses engine vacuum to boost the force applied by the driver’s foot. If the diaphragm or seals inside the booster fail, you will hear a sucking sound when you push the brake pedal and/or it will be almost impossible to push the pedal down (I had one fail on me in high school; there’s nothing like hitting the brakes at 80mph and having the brakes push back!) If the seal on the pedal end of the master cylinder fail, the engine vacuum will suck brake fluid through the booster and into the engine. If your brake fluid keeps going down but you can’t find any leaks, this might be the problem. In any case, it can’t cause spongy brakes.
Max, using the above .gif if needed, does the master cylinder *look[i/] new?

15

Also, I know that GM and other ABS systems have had recalls; has Chrysler had any and, if so, what were the problems and symptoms? Sorry, I can’t search for it now. I don’t want to fall into a “blame the black box” mode, but WTF?

16

Handy,

I’ve had my ABS kick in before, and the pedal DID go to the floor. However, in normal braking I’ve never noticed the problem… (until lately).

Cornflakes, I looked at the M.C. after they installed it and it sure looked new. Hell, for all I know, it could have been my old one that was washed in de-greaser. How can you tell if it is new or rebuilt? I specifically asked him if it was a new one or a rebuilt one, and he said new. He claims he never uses rebuilt ones because of their failure rate.

I don’t know, guys. Tomorrow morning is the showdown. I’m not going to do TOO much screaming. I’m going to politely ask him to validate all his work. I am not a satisfied customer, and his work/parts are guaranteed for 12 months/12 thousand miles. When they replaced the master cylinder, the brakes worked better than they have in years… literally. It was when they replaced the rear shoes (which I asked them to do since I was so happy with the M.C.) that the spongy pedal - down to the floor began. He has already agreed to re-adjust the rear shoes. I will also expect him to re-bleed the system one last time. And if he guarantees that the M.C. is working, then that’s it. I’ll take it to Chrysler, have them work it out, and dispute the charges on my credit card for any work that Chrysler says was unnecessary. I don’t know what my legal recourse is, but I’m going to find out. To be honest, I’m really pissed about the calipers. The fact that I felt stuck paying for this because I had no brakes and still have a soft pedal has sent me over the edge.

Another question: Does anyone know if there is a special way to bleed an ABS system in a Chrysler? I talked to a guy last night on the net, and he said that there is a special pattern.

17

Handy,

I’ve had my ABS kick in before, and the pedal DID go to the floor. However, in normal braking I’ve never noticed the problem… (until lately).

Cornflakes, I looked at the M.C. after they installed it and it sure looked new. Hell, for all I know, it could have been my old one that was washed in de-greaser. How can you tell if it is new or rebuilt? I specifically asked him if it was a new one or a rebuilt one, and he said new. He claims he never uses rebuilt ones because of their failure rate.

I don’t know, guys. Tomorrow morning is the showdown. I’m not going to do TOO much screaming. I’m going to politely ask him to validate all his work. I am not a satisfied customer, and his work/parts are guaranteed for 12 months/12 thousand miles. When they replaced the master cylinder, the brakes worked better than they have in years… literally. It was when they replaced the rear shoes (which I asked them to do since I was so happy with the M.C.) that the spongy pedal - down to the floor began. He has already agreed to re-adjust the rear shoes. I will also expect him to re-bleed the system one last time. And if he guarantees that the M.C. is working, then that’s it. I’ll take it to Chrysler, have them work it out, and dispute the charges on my credit card for any work that Chrysler says was unnecessary. I don’t know what my legal recourse is, but I’m going to find out. To be honest, I’m really pissed about the calipers. The fact that I felt stuck paying for this because I had no brakes and still have a soft pedal has sent me over the edge.

Another question: Does anyone know if there is a special way to bleed an ABS system in a Chrysler? I talked to a guy last night on the net, and he said that there is a special pattern.

18

Handy,

I’ve had my ABS kick in before, and the pedal DID go to the floor. However, in normal braking I’ve never noticed the problem… (until lately).

Cornflakes, I looked at the M.C. after they installed it and it sure looked new. Hell, for all I know, it could have been my old one that was washed in de-greaser. How can you tell if it is new or rebuilt? I specifically asked him if it was a new one or a rebuilt one, and he said new. He claims he never uses rebuilt ones because of their failure rate.

I don’t know, guys. Tomorrow morning is the showdown. I’m not going to do TOO much screaming. I’m going to politely ask him to validate all his work. I am not a satisfied customer, and his work/parts are guaranteed for 12 months/12 thousand miles. When they replaced the master cylinder, the brakes worked better than they have in years… literally. It was when they replaced the rear shoes (which I asked them to do since I was so happy with the M.C.) that the spongy pedal - down to the floor began. He has already agreed to re-adjust the rear shoes. I will also expect him to re-bleed the system one last time. And if he guarantees that the M.C. is working, then that’s it. I’ll take it to Chrysler, have them work it out, and dispute the charges on my credit card for any work that Chrysler says was unnecessary. I don’t know what my legal recourse is, but I’m going to find out. To be honest, I’m really pissed about the calipers. The fact that I felt stuck paying for this because I had no brakes and still have a soft pedal has sent me over the edge.

Another question: Does anyone know if there is a special way to bleed an ABS system in a Chrysler? I talked to a guy last night on the net, and he said that there is a special pattern.

19

whoa! triple post! i don’t know how that happened… sorry.

20

Well, the saga continues. It so happens that I took the car in last Friday to give this guy one more chance. I figured at this point, I really had nothing to lose. The brakes weren’t working properly, and if he didn’t fix them, I have to bite the bullet and take the car to a dealership.

I told him that I really needed to get this resolved. I have spent over $900 on the brakes and they are working as bad as they did when I took the car in. He promised me that he would “personally work on the car” and get the problem resolved. They would re-adjust my rear shoes, check the calipers, re-bleed the system, and see what they can do.

I get a phone call on Friday afternoon. He said that I have a brake pedal again, but he found air near the front right caliper and that he was going to replace it. He ordered it, but he didn’t think he would have it in time. So I had to bring the car back on Monday. <sigh>

I go pick up the car, and the brakes are fine. Car stops, the pedal is firm, and I’m happy… (well, sort of… more to come). I drive the car around all weekend, and things seem to be working… the pedal isn’t losing any firmness, and the brakes are working the way I would expect.

I then do the thing that set me off… While looking at my “new” calipers through my wheels, I notice that they don’t exactly look new. So I jack up the car, pull off the tire, and the letters “REMFG” are stamped on the caliper clear as day. This bastard told me he never uses remanufactured parts on repairs! AAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH! I’m livid. I checked the other one as well, and sure enough… the same thing.

So now I’m pissed. I’ve felt all along that this guy has been jerking me off, and now I KNOW it. I took the car back in today, and since the brakes were working fine, we both decided that he wouldn’t mess with it right now. I’ll drive it for a couple of days and see how it’s going. If the pedal goes bad again, he’ll replace the caliper. “OK”, I said… and “oh yeah, you ARE putting on new calipers, right? These aren’t remanufactured ones, correct?” He stares right at me and says, “oh, yes, absolutely. They are brand new calipers.”

Amazing. I walked out without saying a word. I’m now in touch with a lawyer, the Consumer Protection Agency, the BBB, and my credit card company. I don’t know what (if anything) I’ll get out of this, but that lying, thieving sombitch isn’t going to touch my car again… and if I can help it, he won’t do this to anyone I know, either.

Expensive lesson? You bet. When I talked to my lawyer, he said…“you know, I don’t know anything about cars… I would have never pulled the wheel. And my guess is most people wouldn’t.”