Breaking: Student tasered multiple times at UCLA library

The BBQ Pit
321

Yea. But they are not inclusive either. They are two seperate torts. He sueing because they asked him for his ID card–singling him out because he was not white.
He is NOT sueing because they TASERED him.

FTR, if it turns out that no one else in that library was randomly checked for an ID card that night, then I can see what he was so pissed off about.
Plus, the whole ‘Patriot Act’ thing starts to make a little sense.
He was screaming because he was singled out for being MidEastern and no other white kids were checked.

I dont know if I agree that he refused to show his ID card because he was made about the racism (As one article states). I think he just didn’t have it.

322

Yeah, I don’t think he had his I.D. card either. I know I would have said I had it after at least the first tasering.

And i’m not saying he’s actually suing for excessive force. I’m just saying that he may use excessive force as the main prong of his argument that he was racially discriminated against; he’ll say a non-Iranian would not have been treated in such a way.

I’d like to address this, though;

It seems you’re downplaying the decision they made; that forcing the situation into one where the cops be much more likely to administer a tasering or drag the guy out of the building isn’t actually that bad when compared to just walking the guy out. Yet you’ve been saying for this whole thread that dragging him out is likely to result in injury; how do you reconcile this post with that argument?

323

I haven’t seen him say that. Do you have an article where he makes this point? All I’ve seen is the ‘they only wanted to see my ID because I’m not white’ statements.
Are there any “they only Tasered me because I’m not white” comments made by involved in the suit?

They did not force anything. The susepect was not forced to act any certain way. He is legally obligated to obey the lawful commands of a police officer. If an officer feels that placing his hands on the suspect while escorting him out gives him better control over the situation then he has the leeway to make that decision on the scene. We can’t really criticize that choice because we weren’t there. Also, we still dont know that the kid was indeed walking out at the time the police arrived.
Experience would show a more seasoned officer that placing your hands on a suspect–while legal–may change their level of cooperation and their desire to comply. So, he should be sure to make a deliberate decision to do so, and not act strictly out of habit. He should think “Do I need to hold his arm as we walk out the door or not.” Regardless of his decision, it does not force the suspect to do anything except what he is instructed to do by the officer. Period. He still makes that decision for himself and should be solely responsible for his conduct.

324

So you agree,then, that he wasn’t tresspassing. As do the officers who arrested him, who didn’t charge him with tresspassing.

link

Dude wasn’t tresspassing. Stop saying he was.

325

Okay. What do you call it when you are asked to leave some place by the owner or agent of the establishment, but stay anyway? Do you have a better term for that? If you do, I’d like to hear it. Seriously, I’ll use that word instead.

326

If there are, I haven’t seen any. I’m guessing. If you want to point out somewhere where i’ve said “this is what’s happening”, feel free to do so.

Er, what? The cops forced him to leave, did they not?

Look, my point was this; You said that in the decision between choosing to walk the suspect out and force the suspect out, that either way the cops weren’t “wrong”. By walking the suspect out, one result can be had; the cops and the suspect walk out. By forcing him out, there are four possible results; the suspect chooses to walk out of his own accord, the suspect doesn’t and the cops are must taser him until he complies, the suspect doesn’t and the cops drag him out, or the suspect doesn’t, the cops taser him but fail to obtain his compliance and drag him out (as in this case). You’ve argued in this thread that tasering isn’t that bad; but you’ve also argued that dragging out a suspect is likely to lead to injury. Given then that choosing to force the suspect out means that injury is a much more likely result than in just walking the suspect out, how can you reconcile your statement that either way the choice would not be “wrong”?

327

Story Time:

One night I was walking home from a night of bar hopping with my brother and his girlfriend at the time. I dont remember what it was about, but she really pissed me off and I was screaming and yelling at her pretty beligerantly. Some officers saw this and came over.
One, without saying anything, came up behind me and grabbed me. He walked me over to a wall and immediately found the firearm at my waistline. Problem was, my CCW was currently at the house (only 3 blocks away, but not on me). They were understandably rough at first but I cooperated completely. Eventually they followed me to my house and let me show them my permit.
Now, had I decided to get all pissy and shit and not sit on the ground where they told me, and if I didn’t comply with their intrustions and ended up Tasered and yelling and crying, I would have been charged with resisting an officer.
I would not have been charged with Carrying a Concealed Firearm, because I had a right to do so. This doesn’t mean they knew it at the time. And if some guys where later debating whether it was prudent for them to Taser me 20 times, part of the discussion will include sentences such as “He was detained for carrying a concealed weapon and then would not sit still or comply…”
Then some dick like you would say “No he wasn’t!!! He wasn’t carrying a concealed weapon. See, here’s a cite where it shows he was never charged with that crime!!”

He was told to leave. He stayed. It’s called tresspassing.

328

May I rephrase: The Cops did not force him to be uncooperative. The did force him to leave, as is their right. Or rather, their duty.

Or the suspect runs. Or the suspect turns around and punches the cop in the face. Or the suspect reaches in his pocket and pulls out a weapon… Or maybe the suspect changes his mind anyway and sits down. (Then we’re back to square one) It’s not just one option.
The officer has more positive control of the suspect by having his hands on him. If the officer, for whatever reason, feels he needs this level of control, then he should do it. He should not compromise his safety for the comfort of the suspect. That is why he is trained in certain ‘escort’ techniques. I was not there so I do not know the perception of the suspect at the time. I do not know if his attitude was abrassive or argumentative, if he was making furtive movements, if he looked like he’d run off, if he looked violent, etc.
Hell, I dont even know that the suspect was actually walking out at the time the officers arrived. That fact is still debated by witnesses.

BTW, they didn’t drag him out. Everytime he pulled up his legs, they had to stop. They told him repeatedly to put down his legs, but he kept refusing. So they Tasered him. That happened a couple times, even in handcuffs–which explains the Tasering while cuffed. They didn’t have to drag him out. They didn’t drag him out. They had to keep stopping because they weren’t about to carry or drag him. So it was ‘walk.walk.stop.taser.walk.walk.stop.taser.walk’ all the way out the building. Ahhhh the effectiveness of the Taser. It took him a couple times to learn, but he figured it out. Dont Comply=Zap!

I think maybe you have a different view of “forced out”. I’m talking about just having your hands on their arm or something so you can quickly react to any aggressive motion or attempt to flee. I’m not talking about some forceful wrestling to remove him. You’re correc that I think that is the wrong answer. But this is not, as far as we know, what they did. The kids said “dont touch me”, so I assume it was just a touch.

329

No, I was legitamately curious. I hadn’t seen it and was wondering if you had. I didn’t know if the ‘excessive force due to race’ was stated somewhere.
I’ve only seen the “they checked my ID cause I’m not white” statements.

330

Seeing the video I have to say that this looks like plain torture to me, using pain to coherse an action. That´s pretty bad itself but since the guy didn´t seem to be a danger to anyone and the cops could have carried him away without tasering him it´s particulary repugnant.

331

Same guy? Same night? In front of same witnesses? Hey, try and control your kill-happy euphoria long enough to get your story straight.

And then there’s just friggn dead.

I sure wouldn’t try this anyplace people are taught to value property over human life.

332

Excellent Points. Wow, nobody’s mentioned this once in 7 pages.

I’m convinced now. Those bastards!

333

A fair rephrasing.

These are all good points. Problem is- that’s not what you said;

You weren’t comparing what actually happened to the potential things that could have gone wrong. You were comparing what actually happened to an ideal scenario in which they just followed him outside.

Again, to go back to your own words; you allowed for the fact that you didn’t know what was happening. You said you didn’t know; and then directly after said that either way, it didn’t matter whether they chose to walk him out and it all went perfectly fine or if they chose to do it the way they did in reality.

And you know this how?

Haha! Yes, torture* is * an effective device for making someone comply! Ah, those pesky students and their learning curve!

(Predicted response: “It’s not torture! You don’t understand tasers! They hurt only as much as a twisted arm!”)

Well, my view of “forced out” would mean actually having to force him; seeing as how having your hand on someone doesn’t force them to do anything, whilst dragging them does. But I don’t agree with your characterisation of my view, either; i’m not talking about forceful wrestling, since even if the student is completely limp dragging would still mean forcing. At least in my view.

I like, by the way, that you’re willing to take the word of the student when he says “don’t touch me” but not when he says “I said I would leave”. Did he suddenly become a huge liar between those two times?

334

It was audible in the video. I can’t picture someone saying “dont touch me” if they are not being touched. I can picture them screaming “I said I would leave” when they are trying to shift responsibility for consequences of their own choices.

Problem is when I say ‘force out’ I’m just thinking “made to leave against his will”. Like if I was kicked out of a club… if the owner says “You’re too drunk. Go home” and I say “But I dont want to go! I’m having fun!” and he says “Go. Now.”
And then I leave. When I later tell my friends what happened to me that night, I would say “I was forced to leave”. Miscommunication.

It hurts worse. Injurs less. :smiley:

Its in the video. Watch them in the doorway. The guy pulls his feet up from the ground. So he’s like in a fetal position but hovering above the ground because they’re still holding him. But now they’re holding all of his weight up–which is his point. He’s resisting. Actually, it looks like a child who doesn’t want to leave the park. It’s sickening to think this is a grown-up.
Anyway, watch him in the doorway. They dont continue moving when he does this. They stop. Then tell him like a dozen times (no i didnt count) to put his feet down.
He does not put his feet down, so he gets zapped. Then they make it a little further…

I see what you’re asking. Give me a sec.

335

I believe he actually did have his ID. My understanding is that his claim is that he felt he was being discriminated against for being asked to show it, and he chose to leave instead. After he was already walking out, he was jumped by campus security.

He wasn’t “trespassing,” he was a tutition paying student who had every right to be there. Accusing him of trespassing is just a lie.

336

I don’t know if you’ve got a younger brother or sister, but one of the most annoying things they can do is make as if to poke you but leave their hand an inch away. Or just hold their hand in front of your face. I’ve certainly said “Don’t touch me!” to that (getting the response “But i’m not touching you”. Bastard. :wink: )

Not that i’m saying the cops were playing some kind of game. But if I were the student, and I saw a cop get out his cuffs, or get out his taser, I think my automatic response might be “don’t touch me” even if they are as of yet not. I might not say it in so whiny a voice, but then I would have left when they asked, too.

But you weren’t forced, that’s the thing. They told you to leave, and you had an obligation not to trespass, but you weren’t forced. You still had a choice whether to stay or to leave. I would define being “forced” to do something as having that choice taken away from you.

Than? Torture? I’m sure it hurts less than what we’ve generally come to see as torture, sure. That doesn’t make it not torture, though.

I see the zapping. And I see holding him up. I don’t see walking. And by walking, I mean moving under his own power, not being propelled by cops and stumbling to keep up, or something.

337

Now that you´ve take the effort to show the level of respect you have for other people´s opinions I can properly value yours.

338

The main point I was originally trying to get out was this:

This was in response to where Thalion explained the situation as “The guy was told to leave, then he started to leave but objected to being touched, so he sat on the floor in protest…” (paraphrase)
So I thought. Well, hell. IF that was the case, dont touch him at all.

You’re right that I made a billion assumptions and made it an ideal situation. I should have said, "If that was the case, and there is no furtive or suspicious or potentially violent behavior or disruptive demeanor or angry disposition from the suspect, just follow him out without touching him and then do what you have to do once you are outside. I was just trying to addon to his “What I would do if I was there in that situation” post.

I was taking Thalion’s lead with the whole “He was walking out but objected to being touched” scenario he proposed. I thought that was interesting so I expanded with the whole explanation about “people will change from cooperative to uncooperative simply by touching them”. So it’s a good idea to–if possible–avoid touching them until necessary.

Because in reality I am not going to hold it against someone for feeling they need positive control of a suspect in any situation. Some cops may be more nervous than others. Some may be less comfortable with giving a suspect that kind of space.
The fact is, it’s their call. If I was a supervisor, I would explain the whole “Yes person/No person” thing to them, and explain about peoples’ space and all that.
But I would never tell them to not use escort or transporter techniques at anytime they feel it’s prudent and necessary. The officer has to make that call. They are the one on the scene.

Regardless of the decision of the officer, it doesn’t take any responsibilty whatsoever away from the suspect to comply with lawful commands. If the officer lets him walk out untouched or if the officer holds his arm, the suspect is still obligated to comply. So if an officer feels its necessary to go ‘hands on’ a suspect is still 100% responsible for his noncompliance. Even if it was caused by his dislike for being touched.
Personally, I am a pretty big guy, and fast for my size. I would probably give a suspect a little more space than someone else. It wouldn’t be wrong of me to do otherwise, though.

So if things are done properly, there is no chance of wrestling or dragging the guy out.

-Guy walks out. You follow without touching him. Great
-Guy walks out. You escort him out with hands on. Great.
-Guy walks out. You escort him out with hands on. He changes his mind and doesn’t comply. You taser him a couple times. Guy is reluctanctly removed from building. Great.
-Guy walks out. You follow without touching him. Because of the personal space you gave him, he is able to run away. That sucks.
-… or he is able to get a full on swing at your face and knocks you out. BAD!! (Being right on him with hands on prevents him from a full swing BTW)

Anyway, so like I was trying to say but I suck at saying things.
Regardless of the decision of the officer to go hands on, they were not wrong. The suspect is still wrong regardless.
The Tasering is still right, regardless.

339

I can’t argue with that explanation. But it’s not what I meant. I used a poor choice of words.

Than a wristlock. Hurst worse than a wristlock.

…much much worse. Well, I guess that kinda depends on the wristlock though.

I bet it hurts MORE than waterboarding. :wink:

I’ll give you that. If you grant me the fact that a stumble is easier to deal with than a dead carry.
It’s easier to get a very drunk person to the car than a totally passed out guy. (Man, I have a lot of bar stories today)

340

Regarding the whole “either way, it’s not wrong” argument, I think it was just that you’d seemingly said “Choosing to drag/taser a guy into compliance over just walking him out where nothing goes wrong is not a wrong decision”, which to me seemed pretty odd. I’ll accept that it was just a poor choice of words, mainly because I communicate pretty badly at times, too. Choosing to go the drag/taser route against walking out a potentially non-cooperative guy is a lot greyer area, so that’s fair.

Just this last part, though;

While there’s no doubt that the suspect was in the wrong, I think it’s reasonable to say the police could be. What if the suspect clearly did not require hands-on treatment? I’m aware that it might not always be that straightforward, but if the suspect didn’t appear to need the cops to hold onto him, wouldn’t that make the cop’s decision to do so wrong? As you’ve said, sometimes hands-on treatment can actually provoke an otherwise perfectly compliant suspect.

Ok, fair enough.

I imagine it would. This guy was cuffed, however, so a wristlock would have been pretty pointless.

I’d imagine so too, because waterboarding (as I understand it) is not a torture method that relies on pain, but mortal dread.

Yep, makes sense to me.