Brexit - general discussion thread

[Budget_Player_Cadet]

@UltraVires

First, I know very little about food quality standards. But I have confidence in first world nations that they have sufficient standards to be good enough for me. I would not anywhere in the U.S., the UK, or Canada, (just as examples) that the food I am eating will kill me because of a lack of standards enacted by the country.

Well, not immediately, anyways. The EU has tighter regulations on pesticides and preservatives because it follows a more cautious strategy on them. BPA is a big one here - it’s an endocrine disruptor, meaning that there may be very dangerous long-term effects. And that shit’s all over the place. The EU currently allows it, but they are continuing research into it and consider it an issue of significant concern.

For an organization like the EU, that should be good enough.

The member states of the EU disagree with you on this one.

As I understand it, it its meant to be a loose confederation of similarly situated countries to act as a free trade zone. So be a loose confederation; don’t tell a farmer in the UK what pesticides he can put on his tomato plants.

I bolded the part you seem to be missing. Think for a moment about this - why would a free trade zone have an interest in what pesticides farmers in member states use? Why would, say, France care about what pesticides farmers in Poland are using? Can you think of any possible reason?

If your group is so restrictive that the United States would not qualify to be a member, then you are too restrictive. And I’m not saying USA #1!!! I am saying that it is an example of arrogance to have standards THAT high and require them on your member states.

Dude, in the EU we look down at you guys with sadness - and fear, because you have a tendency to export your nastiest bullshit. The problem is not our standards - it’s that the US is, in a great many ways, disgustingly underregulated, owned by capital interests, and morally backwards. Case in point:

And then it gets into things like the death penalty and prohibits member states from having that. I certainly do not want to debate the death penalty, but that is an internal matter in each country. The United States is not hampered in free trade or movement of people between states because some have the death penalty and some do not.

The member states of the EU disagree. And they’re the ones who get to have a say. They see the death penalty the way the US used to see torture - a moral abomination that cannot be tolerated within member states. It’s the purview of corrupt third-world backwaters and dictatorships, not modern liberal democracies. And that’s part of the EU charter of fundamental rights. Y’know, that document that it might make sense to have if you’re going to have a union where people can move freely. You wouldn’t want to have a large population freely moving into your borders who hold fundamentally different values than you, would you? I would think that you, as a republican, would understand that quite well. This is not “bureaucratic bloat”, this is a piece of what the EU is, going back to its origins in the 50s with the European Convention on Human Rights. Please note that Protocol 6, banning the death penalty outside of wartime, has been ratified by every Council nation except Russia, and that includes every EU country and several countries not in the EU - basically, everyone except Switzerland.

“It’s good enough for the US so it should be good enough for everyone else” is ABSOLUTELY “America is #1” thinking, even if not declared as such explicitly. No, what’s good enough for the US is not good enough for everyone else. I wouldn’t move back to the US unless Germany fucking deported me, and I’d fight that deportation tooth and nail.

It is overbearing and has caused one of its largest members to leave and there was no need for it to get to that point. If the EU would have stayed true to its original goal and not suffered from bureaucratic bloat, it would have been fine.

Your posts show virtually no understanding of the EU, Europe, or Brexit in any way, shape, or form. I think you really should learn something about it before you keep putting your foot in your mouth.

[UltraVires]

Oh, and to your second point. I am juggling a few things, and I read part of it, but will read the rest this evening. Thank you for the link.

I have tried to read up on Brexit and the EU relationship in general because everyone keeps telling me I misunderstand it. Then when I read something, it seems like, well, I might not know everything, but the EU just keeps screwing with the member states, and if I was a country in Europe, I would not want to be a member.

I would like the idea of free travel, free movement of people, and free trade, but I fail to understand the need for such an extensive regulation of internal policies to achieve these goals. We don’t need that in the United States and we have all of those things.

I can start in one state that allows smoking in bars, that allows unpasteurized milk, that allows the concealed carry of handguns, that has the death penalty, that only allows liquor to be sold in state run stores, etc. and go to another state that takes the opposite position on all of these issues. None of this affects free movement of people or free trade. Even with the generally large powers of states to regulate domestic affairs, we still complain that the federal government is too powerful. However, we are a nation and that debate goes with the territory.

The EU does not pretend to be a nation; it states that it is a loose confederation, yet it still attempts to regulate all of these internal issues.

[Baron_Greenback]

@UltraVires

I can start in one state that allows smoking in bars, that allows unpasteurized milk, that allows the concealed carry of handguns, that has the death penalty, that only allows liquor to be sold in state run stores, etc. and go to another state that takes the opposite position on all of these issues. None of this affects free movement of people or free trade. Even with the generally large powers of states to regulate domestic affairs, we still complain that the federal government is too powerful. However, we are a nation and that debate goes with the territory.

The EU does not pretend to be a nation; it states that it is a loose confederation, yet it still attempts to regulate all of these internal issues.

Apart from the death penalty, none of the issues you raise are regulated by the EU.

Edit: in fact, rules governing those issues aren’t even uniform within the UK

[UltraVires]

@Budget_Player_Cadet

The member states of the EU disagree with you on this one.

Not one, and this overregulation is causing it to leave.

@Budget_Player_Cadet

I bolded the part you seem to be missing. Think for a moment about this - why would a free trade zone have an interest in what pesticides farmers in member states use? Why would, say, France care about what pesticides farmers in Poland are using? Can you think of any possible reason?

Then what is wrong with washing your vegetables that a Frenchman gets that come from Poland or making a decision not to buy Polish vegetables? People do that all of the time in free markets. I buy Bud Light Beer instead of Coors. I buy Pepsi instead of Coke.

Now you may say that those are product choices and not health issues, but I believe that the Polish people are just as capable as the French, and certainly as capable as a bunch of bureaucrats in Brussels to set quality first world health standards. And if you don’t think they are, then you are free not to buy Polish products.

@Budget_Player_Cadet

Dude, in the EU we look down at you guys with sadness - and fear, because you have a tendency to export your nastiest bullshit. The problem is not our standards - it’s that the US is, in a great many ways, disgustingly underregulated, owned by capital interests, and morally backwards. Case in point:

Then don’t buy American products. But I think we do just fine. Our representatives are every bit as capable as those in Brussels to keep our food safe and so are the regulators in the UK and in Canada. To say that UK food would now need to be inspected is solely a childish act of vindictiveness. You know that the UK is a first world country that will not poison people.

@Budget_Player_Cadet

The member states of the EU disagree. And they’re the ones who get to have a say. They see the death penalty the way the US used to see torture - a moral abomination that cannot be tolerated within member states. It’s the purview of corrupt third-world backwaters and dictatorships, not modern liberal democracies. And that’s part of the EU charter of fundamental rights. Y’know, that document that it might make sense to have if you’re going to have a union where people can move freely. You wouldn’t want to have a large population freely moving into your borders who hold fundamentally different values than you, would you? I would think that you, as a republican, would understand that quite well. This is not “bureaucratic bloat”, this is a piece of what the EU is, going back to its origins in the 50s with the European Convention on Human Rights. Please note that Protocol 6, banning the death penalty outside of wartime, has been ratified by every Council nation except Russia, and that includes every EU country and several countries not in the EU - basically, everyone except Switzerland.

So it has nothing to do with free movement, free trade, or open borders. It is a governing dictate from Brussels and an example as to how the EU exceeds its proper purpose.

@Budget_Player_Cadet

“It’s good enough for the US so it should be good enough for everyone else” is ABSOLUTELY “America is #1” thinking, even if not declared as such explicitly. No, what’s good enough for the US is not good enough for everyone else. I wouldn’t move back to the US unless Germany fucking deported me, and I’d fight that deportation tooth and nail.

You can look down at the U.S. all you want, but I am not saying USA #1 at all. I am saying that the U.S., like Canada, or like the UK, while not absolutely perfect in all aspects, has a functioning government where you can eat the food without dying and do not need the EU to oversee it.

Oh, but you get to make the rules? Keep making rules, then and you’ll find that the UK will just be the first of many to leave your little club.

[UltraVires]

@Baron_Greenback

Apart from the death penalty, none of the issues you raise are regulated by the EU.

Edit: in fact, rules governing those issues aren’t even uniform within the UK

I misspoke. It attempts to regulate internal issues, not necessarily those.

[Elendil_s_Heir]

@UltraVires

…Keep making rules, then and you’ll find that the UK will just be the first of many to leave your little club.

Depending on how ugly its departure is, it also just might be the last.

[sachertorte]

@UltraVires

So not even U.S. standards are good enough for the EU? No wonder the UK wants to leave. Who would want to live under such a bureaucratic state, making regulations for the sake of having regulations.

Would you say that Canadian Standards are sub-par compared to the USA? Because there are absolutely border checks to make sure shipments from Canada to the USA meet regulations. The USA does this to protect the USA, not because of some sort of sneering at Canada. There are things in Canada that you can’t bring into the USA. I assume there are also things you can’t take from the USA to Canada. The same will be true between the UK and EU when the UK leaves the EU.

It isn’t because one is better than the other. It is because they are different.

[UltraVires]

@sachertorte

Would you say that Canadian Standards are sub-par compared to the USA? Because there are absolutely border checks to make sure shipments from Canada to the USA meet regulations. The USA does this to protect the USA, not because of some sort of sneering at Canada. There are things in Canada that you can’t bring into the USA. I assume there are also things you can’t take from the USA to Canada. The same will be true between the UK and EU when the UK leaves the EU.

It isn’t because one is better than the other. It is because they are different.

As I said, I know as much about food standards as I know about aliens. However, I have taken many trips to Canada and I eat the food there the same way I would eat it in the U.S. I have confidence that Canada makes sure that its food and its citizens are safe from the food.

Further, I have never read any article or heard anyone say, “Well, when you go to Canada, be sure that you don’t eat the ____!”

As such, I see absolutely no reason why the U.S. should inspect food shipments from Canada. I think it is a waste of time, but again, I could be corrected.

[Budget_Player_Cadet]

@UltraVires

Further, I have never read any article or heard anyone say, “Well, when you go to Canada, be sure that you don’t eat the ____!”

Interestingly enough, just recently I saw this in the US - “When you go to the US, be sure that you don’t eat the Romaine Lettuce!”

Okay, that’s a big unfair - contamination scares like this happen from time to time. But that’s part of why you inspect imported food in general.

[GreenWyvern]

@UltraVires

As such, I see absolutely no reason why the U.S. should inspect food shipments from Canada. I think it is a waste of time, but again, I could be corrected.

UltraVires trusts big corporations.

They would never dream of exporting sub-standard stuff to another country that they couldn’t sell in their own.

[sachertorte]

@UltraVires

As I said, I know as much about food standards as I know about aliens. However, I have taken many trips to Canada and I eat the food there the same way I would eat it in the U.S. I have confidence that Canada makes sure that its food and its citizens are safe from the food.

Further, I have never read any article or heard anyone say, “Well, when you go to Canada, be sure that you don’t eat the ____!”

As such, I see absolutely no reason why the U.S. should inspect food shipments from Canada. I think it is a waste of time, but again, I could be corrected.

It isn’t just safety standards though. You can’t bring citrus from Canada to the USA to protect the USA Citrus industry. Ironically, most of the citrus in Canada is from the USA, but the regulation stands. This is to protect the USA.

I also recall flying to New Zealand and being warned by my travel agency not to bring certain over the counter drugs to NZ (I think it was Sudafed). That’s because it is illegal in NZ. Both first world, but just different in little ways.

[UltraVires]

@Budget_Player_Cadet

Interestingly enough, just recently I saw this in the US - “When you go to the US, be sure that you don’t eat the Romaine Lettuce!”

Okay, that’s a big unfair - contamination scares like this happen from time to time. But that’s part of why you inspect imported food in general.

That’s sort of my point. You didn’t need the EU to tell you not to eat Romaine Lettuce in the U.S. for that time. We figured it out all on our own and we passed it along through the media.

@GreenWyvern

UltraVires trusts big corporations.

They would never dream of exporting sub-standard stuff to another country that they couldn’t sell in their own.

Is this really how it works? I’m not being snarky; I really don’t know.

Let’s say that Nabisco has a brand of crackers that they mix with sawdust to maximize volume. The U.S. does not allow them to sell it domestically. Do we allow them to ship it overseas without any internal inspection at all and just leave it up to the damn foreigners to decide whether or not it is good? And if it kills someone, well fuck 'em, they should have inspected it?

[UltraVires]

@sachertorte

It isn’t just safety standards though. You can’t bring citrus from Canada to the USA to protect the USA Citrus industry. Ironically, most of the citrus in Canada is from the USA, but the regulation stands. This is to protect the USA.

I also recall flying to New Zealand and being warned by my travel agency not to bring certain over the counter drugs to NZ (I think it was Sudafed). That’s because it is illegal in NZ. Both first world, but just different in little ways.

The first paragraph goes against the principles of free trade. Does that happen in the EU?

The situation in your second paragraph is different than what we are discussing. The issue with Sudafed in NZ is not that it is manufactured or packaged improperly but that NZ has enacted a general police power regulation in which it has decided to ban Sudafed entirely. That happens in the EU, I’m sure. I would guess I would be in some trouble if I bought a bag of weed in Amsterdam and tried to fly to France with it.

[septimus]

California operates agricultural checkpoints near the state borders on the major highways into California from Oregon, Nevada and Arizona. What sort of internal border checkpoints operate within the European Community?

@UltraVires

I misspoke. It attempts to regulate internal issues, not necessarily those.

Are you upset that cars must stop and make declarations when entering California?

You’re unhappy that European countries in the Community cannot impose the death penalty? Are you also unhappy that States in the American Union cannot prohibit gun ownership?

[Ramira]

@UltraVires

That’s sort of my point. You didn’t need the EU to tell you not to eat Romaine Lettuce in the U.S. for that time.

No you needed your own coordinating authority that is overseeing the common market that is the united states with its free flow of the goods.

Which… is the role of such entities. How you think this is somehow even of the relevance as an objection or a criticism of the EU role…?

We figured it out all on our own and we passed it along through the media.

You mean your US federal health agency coordinating between your members states of the Union issued a warning to the medias…

Which is exactly the coordinating role of the EU bodies…

What on earth is your objection, do you not actually understand your own system?

Let’s say that Nabisco has a brand of crackers that they mix with sawdust to maximize volume. The U.S. does not allow them to sell it domestically. Do we allow them to ship it overseas without any internal inspection at all and just leave it up to the damn foreigners to decide whether or not it is good? And if it kills someone, well fuck 'em, they should have inspected it?

???.. you do not have the export quality inspections except where you have may have the specific rules and trade agreeements with a country for inspection at the port that is originating, and you do have the importing inspections and you do have your internal controls. The importing countries usually have certain documentation and rules that the private exporter has to obey, and they will unless they are in customs union have their own inspections. This is the way the non customs union trade in the goods works.

When an agricultural product exporter sends to the USA from say the Tunis or the Morocco, there is an inspection to generate the documentation that you in the USA require by the agreed on treaty rules. The documentation has to be furnished or your authorities send it back.

@UltraVires

The first paragraph goes against the principles of free trade.

You have the trade agreements that regulate this. they are the Rules of Free Trade, you know.

You seem to have not very much understanding of your own customs controls you impose on the incoming goods.

Does that happen in the EU?

the EU has just like the USA / the NAFTA the sets of origins rules, the quotas etc. relative to the non-members or the “only WTO” countries. This is banal.

That is the way trade works.

The UK is choosing to leave a situation that looks almost exactly like the trade between the US states - that is with essentially zero controls - to a situation where there are controls.

It is not being mean or vindictive - these are the choices the UK is making.

[UltraVires]

Ok, maybe this will make it simpler. Suppose during the Romaine Lettuce incident, the United States said that nobody in the U.S. can sell Romaine Lettuce anywhere in the United States until we figure this out.

So then ACME Lettuce, Inc. decides that they are not going to let their store of lettuce rot, they will ship it to a customer in a foreign country, say a regional grocery chain in the UK. Is there anything that would stop this shipment before it left our shores, or would the receiving country have to intercept the package, realize that it is the bad lettuce, and then either destroy it or send it back?

[Ramira]

Whatever the inspection requirements for the USA to the EU agricultural trade rules requires. It is that trade agreement and the importing rules for the shipping clearances that intervene. (you see the EU has this database you can check your own american formalities in http://madb.europa.eu/madb/indexPubli.htm and there is the overview EU trade relations with United States) - freedom from tariffs or low tariffs is just one aspect of the cost of trade when not in the customs union. Something the brexiters and apparently you have not quite integrated into reflection.

There is the whole business of the Transitaire that is well remunerated where there is not the customs union that apply to this to remove these.

Even before a container is cleared to leave, there is the documentary requirement and if a contaminated shipment is detected it is usually on the cost of the expediting party for its return.

Do not imagine you are sending outside of the **customs union **just shipments here and there without the documentation that is meeting the rules - particularly for the advanced countries - the importing countries rules including certificates of inspection from the mandated labs or the parties authorized by the agreements.

The private contracts on payment will regulate usually who bears the cost once it reaches a port and it is to be cleared in, but it is usually the exporting party before the clearance…

This is not new news.

It is truly bizarre that somehow the Brexiters in the UK were saying it would be great to be under only the WTO…

but so is the emotional political posturing I guess, it is not rational.

[Ramira]

and for sending the lettuce to your country, voila the rules set including the links to the documentation like the certificates of cleanliness your FDA requires to be filed wit the shipments: Welcome to Access2Markets to Market Access Database users | Access2Markets

so of which
Phytosanitary of the us fda: Welcome to Access2Markets to Market Access Database users | Access2Markets
inspection certificate on the import: Welcome to Access2Markets to Market Access Database users | Access2Markets
etc.

this is the world outside of the customs union.
which for some reason the uk brexiters think is the better idea for the trading with their closest neighbor.

[UltraVires]

@Ramira

and for sending the lettuce to your country, voila the rules set including the links to the documentation like the certificates of cleanliness your FDA requires to be filed wit the shipments: Welcome to Access2Markets to Market Access Database users | Access2Markets

so of which
Phytosanitary of the us fda: Welcome to Access2Markets to Market Access Database users | Access2Markets
inspection certificate on the import: Welcome to Access2Markets to Market Access Database users | Access2Markets
etc.

this is the world outside of the customs union.
which for some reason the uk brexiters think is the better idea for the trading with their closest neighbor.

Thanks for the replies and the helpful cites. Please bear with me because, again, I am trying to understand.

So, if I am Acme Lettuce and I ship it to UK regional distributor, the lettuce will be refused at the port of entry because the FDA would not approve the lettuce for cleanliness or other purposes, right? If it did have an FDA approval, it goes through, right?

Why, then, after Brexit, should the UK not be able to affirm through their regulatory board that the products it ships to the EU are in compliance? Or can it do that?

There has to be at least some certification now even within the EU or else unscrupulous producers could send tainted foods all over the EU.

[UltraVires]

Sorry, I missed your second cite. It seems the EU inspects again upon entry. What is it looking for in a crate of lettuce?