Pass. Assuming you’re playing 5 card majors, partner does not have 3+ spades, else she would have raised you. RHO does not have 4+ hearts or would have raised LHO’s overcall to the level of the fit. To repeat hearts, LHO must have at least 6 hearts. So opponents can be expected to have an 8 or 9 card fit. This means partner can be expected to have 3 or 4 hearts. LHO’s overcall is technically unlimed, but with higher point counts you would expect her to double then bid. Neither partner nor RHO have bid so you cannot expect points there and thus points are probably around 20-20 on each side. So pass.
I would, however, take issue with the initial double. To me, that looks like a penalty double rather than a take-out double because you’ve already bid a suit.
Quartz - I should have been clearer - we were playing Acol, so my 1S shows only 4. And I don’t think that even with a fit partner is obliged to bid over the intervention if he has a very weak hand - say xxxx xxx Qx xxxx
“Bid to the level of the fit” isn’t a big thing round here. I think it’s too simplistic myself - in my experience on of the best ways to go for a big penalty is to overbid on a big fit in an otherwise weak/balanced hand. Say 1S - 2H - 3D - 3H (“I’ve got 4 hearts for you, partner”) - 3S - 4H (“I’ve got a 6th Heart”) - P - P -Dble and when the hands go down you see that there are no ruffs in dummy, the 9th and 10th trumps are waste paper and even at favourable vulnerability, 4 down isn’t worth it. Or you get doubled after 1S -2H - P - 3H and five minutes later opponents are scoring up their +300 and agreeing there’s no way they’d have bid game on two semi-balanced hands and a combined 23 count.
Now if the overcaller’s partner has ruffing values, then it’s a very different story - if you can make 5 or 6 trumps in hand plus 2 or 3 ruffs in dummy, either you’re making game or saving cheaply.
The re-opening double would be for penalties in the old days, but nowadays pretty much everyone would play it a take-out - there just aren’t very many hands with a legitimate penalty double after 1S -2H - P - P, so use the double to show strength and 2S to show a weaker hand with longer spades. Partner can convert the double if he has a strong heart holding (and he’s more likely to hold a heart stack than opener).
In fact, these days it’s hard to find a genuine penalty double of a 2-level bid - an escape after a double of 1NT is the only one I can think of - which might explain why modern bidding is so aggressive.
robardin - Nice story, and for my money you picked the right time for your 4C.
One of the risks of pre-empting is that you can end up bouncing opponents into a making game they wouldn’t have found by themselves, but with only 5HCP and one defensive trick opposite a passing partner it looks likely they’ll find something.
Likewise, it looks unlikely that you’ll go for a pile if they decide to double 4C - you might, but if partner’s hand is completely empty then they’re making slam, and 4-5 off is a bargain. And 4C is so much more pre-emptive than 3C.
Mind you, I’ve met some players who would overcall 1S on that hand…
Opening style is quite wide among bridge players… I can only tell you my preference, which is to be constructive opposite an unpassed partner.
I would never open a “terrible suit” with a weak 2 in first or second seat.
OTOH I might well open even a weak 2 on a mediocre five card suit and a hand with shortness in third seat, like 2H with 1552 shape, to make opponents’ constructive auctions less clear: 2H-(2S), if partner raises to 3H as he will find every excuse to do, they’ve likely lost an invitational spade raise.
A 6610 shaped zero count should never open opposite an unpassed partner, that’s how you’ll get to awful slams and lose all trust from partner… But pass, pass? Yeah, I’d open something, probably 2S.
You can’t pass there in any decent game, Quartz. 18pts with shape and the boss suit? Granted pass prob gets a good score on a normal club night, but that is not the standard we aspire to.
Good to read posts on weak jump overcall quality, Robardin. I think that is something that is less-defined than it should be for a lot of partnerships I play against (and a couple I play in). I think most of us prob have a good dialog with partner on what a weak 2 looks like, but I’ve had some wildly divergent expectations of wjo quality with some partners. Pard needs to know whether to take the sac against a slam, a game, or if they can bid constructively themselves, which is impossible if the overcaller is just wading in with any 6 weak.
I agree. We aspire to be better. But one of the lessons from my masterclasses is that in Duplicate you should not aim for the 100% score but for the 60% score. Getting tops is nice, but they’ll be more than balanced in the long run by 0% scores and getting a consistent 60% will win through. Teams is different, of course.
Are you talking about opening 1S and then reopening with a double not once, but twice, on
KQJ9x
x
AKJx
A9x
This is not a swing move at all - completely unlike what I considered the 4C bid on hand balancing an opening 3S with stiff spade Ace, AQx of hearts, Jxx of diamonds, and QJ-sixth of clubs.
You should be thinking about partner’s expected values, and what you have already shown partner. The reason is not only because you have 20 HCPs, but a much better spade suit. It’s not about points, it’s about where they are.
So, what are partner’s “expected values”, in terms of HCP? What is LHO showing by bidding 2H, and then 3H? Don’t kid yourself that 3H shows any extra HCP - it could, sure, but what it really shows is longer hearts (6+ card suit, maybe 7) that was too good to preempt over 1S. Yet his partner didn’t go to 4H, either.
So I’d say LHO rates to have, say, 12-14 HCPs (with distribution and length in hearts), while partner has 2 or fewer spades (he really should bid 2S over 2H on even a 6 count with three card spade support), and up to 8 HCPs, possibly long hearts.
Since I would have reopened after 1S-(2H)-Pass-(Pass) with a double on:
KQxxx
x
AJxx
A9x
and this hand is CONSIDERABLY better than that, with no wasted cards in hearts, I have to double again, in case partner has “the right” 5 HCPs, we should be in game (3NT); or, with “the right” heart holding, penalizing 3H.
This isn’t a case of partner saying “I heard you the first time”. You have NOT shown this hand, in my opinion, and you should be.
Most importantly, the quality of my spade suit says I have a relatively safe landing spot in 3S if partner has a small doubleton.
I would not try to double a second time with a 20 HCP hand like this:
KJxxx
A
KJxx
AKJ
If we had a game, partner would have said something. But not true with the actual hand I hold, which could make 3NT opposite even something like:
x
KTxx
xx
KJxxx
Now this is definitely from the POV of playing IMPs, which is my preferred scoring. At matchpoints, though, you want to double even more so to make defeating 3H by one a good score versus the possible game that you’re no longer focused on bidding. Because even at matchpoints, you haven’t shown your hand with the first double. And showing your hand is still a good thing.
Yes. The first time around, rather than doubling, I would cue-bid their suit or bid diamonds. 1S - 2H - P - P - 3D and 1S - 2H - P - P - 3H are both very strong bids.
I’m with robardin. I double both times, for the same reasons he gives. I don’t totally hate bidding 3D the first time, but partner will be unhappy if sitting there with a penalty pass. Cue bidding 3H is too much. That forces us too high if partner is a bust.
But your hand doesn’t have good shape to bid 3D, which bid should be highly suit-contract-oriented (saying “we should play this hand”). You actually have excellent defensive values".
You should not consider passing for a moment when you have more than you showed for your opening bid, and a safe way to show it. You’ll find that controlling the 3 level is the key to winning part-score battles, which are extremely important at matchpoints; but even at IMPs, matches come down to IMPs won on a board with a double partial swing, or a couple of 2-3 IMP wins for getting to 3 of something down one versus them making 2 or 3 of something.
The reason I would double the second time is that it REALLY smells like partner has heart length - he has twice refused to bid spades or a minor. Partner’s expected value is around 4-5 HCPs, so even if the 3H bidder has a good 7 card suit, something like
A
AKJTxxx
Qxx
Kx
If partner has Q9xx of trump he’s going to go down on a spade lead, with 2 heart losers and at least four minor suit losers (possibly five, if partner has the Queen of clubs) as he has to constantly lead away from his hand. Just play spades every time you’re in, which will be a lot of non-heart tricks.
If partner has just one trump trick, like Jxxx of hearts, that could be enough to beat 3H by one.
And if the heart bidder has more than one spade, well, look at your spades. You’ll win some of them, since dummy won’t be short in spades (partner is).
Now, if you expect to beat 3H by one and are pretty sure it can go down 2 a bunch of different ways, you should double. Maybe not at IMPs, but most definitely at matchpoints.
In the worst case, if partner has a 0 count with a five card minor, you’ll play in 4 of that minor. Not so bad, and you may even score reasonably well versus 3H (going down 1 or 2 undoubled).
And if he should be 1444 with four miserably tiny hearts that can’t pass for penalty, well, you hope he picks diamonds :).
Some interesting stuff here - at the table, I didn’t bid 3D on the first round because it shuts out Clubs - if partner has 5 or more, Clubs may actually be the right suit. Give the hand a Spade/Diamond more and a Club less and it’s a different story.
As for 3H, while the hand is good, it isn’t quite good enough for a game force opposite a partner who’s promised nothing. Even if we find a fit, it still needs 2-3 tricks from partner to make game.
By the time of the second double, I was suspecting, like robardin that partner had the missing Hearts (and RHO had the missing Spades) and 3H* was going to be left in.
But there’s more:
KQJ9x
x
AKJx
A9x
All vul
1S - 2H - P - P
Dbl - 3H - P - P
Dbl - P - 3S - P
P - 4H - P - P
I wasn’t even sure about the pass of 3S. Partner likely has 3 spades (if he only had 2 and no Heart holding, he would bid his 5-card minor), but even with the fit, my hand has 5 losers. It’s probably too much to expect KC and a minor Queen from him.
Then again. if partner has nothing, opponents must be pretty close to making 4H.
So what now, double a third time, pass, or take the push to 4S?
FWIW I misremembered the hand as having AQx, not A9x, of clubs - which makes the second double a lot more “cuspy”.
That said, I think I would still double a second time at matchpoints, while my regular partner said he would not. (We both chose to double the first time.)
So, you chose to double again, and partner took preference to 3S, and LHO bid 4H, and partner… didn’t double.
Well, damn. And you could’ve played quietly in 3H. If this makes, you pushed them there.
I don’t see a point in doubling yet again - if 4H does indeed make, on my head be it for keeping the auction alive when it should have died. If it’s going down, going plus should be enough, as it’s starting to sound like 3H would have made, and maybe 4H down 1 is a win right there.
BTW there is no such thing as a “push to 4S” here. Partner had the chance to bid 2S over 2H, which he would (should) do on all but the very crappiest of hands, with 3+ spades and 5+ HCPs. He didn’t sit for the double of 3H, and didn’t double 4H, which says he doesn’t have a heart mini-stack behind the bidder. His retreating to 3S bid over 3H doubled could well be on a doubleton, or at best, three small spades.
If 4S was a good sacrifice over 4H, partner is best suited to making that call. He didn’t.
So that means you can only hope that 4H goes down and that 3H was making, in which case you’ve won the part score battle with the boss suit once again, yo! Doubling doesn’t really matter, given the somewhat aggressive second double; you made your bed (or, I made my bed), now it’s time to lie in it.
While I approve of merrick’s bidding, I think partner likely has only two spades. I think West has 8 hearts; East has a good hand but is very short of hearts.
Can you tell what the other hands actually were, merrick?
Defended this hand last night, 3NT contract, no bidding from the defence, MPs.
Dummy
J
T72
QJ2
AKQT95
Declarer
AT7643
AK3
A94
2
Lead was a small heart. Declarer took the wrong line, contract defeated, much wailing and gnashing of teeth ensued.
Think it’s a good exercise for beginner / improvers on what you need to do, although posting it as a problem sort of gives the game away I guess. More an exercise in contingency planning at trick 1 by thinking what might go wrong.
I have a book by Paul Mendelsohn in which he states that often, the key to finding the right line is to think of the hand before you as a ‘problem’ or ‘set’ hand. Maybe there isn’t a catch - but if there is, that way, you might find it.
Anyway, as a beginner/improver, here’s my take on the situation. I see 7 top tricks. One each from clubs and diamonds would seem to be the best prospects for making the contract. If clubs split 3-3 it’s trivial of course, but we can’t rely on that. If they’re 4-2 or 5-1, making 4 or 5 club tricks should be possible, provided we can get into dummy. Which we can, with the QJ of diamonds. What if clubs break 6-0? Then we only make four club tricks, but that QJ of diamonds should still be good for the final one we need.
So, my plan is to win the lead in hand, play the 2 of clubs to cross to dummy, cash the AKQ (in case I get lucky and drop the J), keep playing high clubs until the J appears, win the return in hand, lead a small diamond towards the QJ in dummy. Aaaand now I think I see the flaw in this plan - even if the finesse is right, LHO will rise with the K anyway, and then take 2 spade tricks. Although, after that he will be forced to play a suit I can win, then I cross to dummy with its surviving top diamond, cash any clubs that are left, and play out the rest of my high cards to take the contract, winning 4 clubs, 2 diamonds, 2 hearts, and a spade.
Everything is wrong for declarer on this deal, but 3N is still cold if you think about what holding the lead may have come from, and why that is a threat. If LHO has the KD, they are not taking two spade tricks…
What did East play trick 1? In the sequel I assume he played an honor.
(I retracted my prior post too early!) What you missed, I think, is that
… you must make uncomfortable discards on the clubs. Instead … lose the club early on before forced to unguard Spade 7, giving up your 4th-round spade stopper.
