BritDopers (and nosy foreigners) - The general election 2010

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Lust4Life

Once when Labour and the Conservatives seemed like Siamese twins I wanted to vote Monster Raving Looney as a protest vote but we didn’t have a candidate locally so I voted for the Greens instead.

Why didn’t you stand yourself?

[AK84]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

He wasn’t an Islamic extremist in any commonly understood meaning of the phrase. He abolished sharia courts and replaced them with Western-style secular courts; he was generally much nicer to women than any other Arab leader. Hell, they were even allowed to vote and hold government office… that is, assuming they were Ba’ath Party members.

There were no Sharia courts to abolish. He got rid of the British Indian Code of Criminal Procedure and Penal Code and replaced it with a socialist style legal system.

[Gyrate]

@Dick_Dastardly

He’s done pretty well for a fringe crackpot.

This

@Mr. Kobayashi

he is a capable rabble-rouser and feverish demagogue.

is particularly relevant. You underestimate George Galloway’s ability to shred his opponents in any forum at your peril, as many of his political and media opponents indeed have.

[Dick_Dastardly]

@amrussell

I’ll see if I can dig up the video, but for me it was about the time that he announced that anyone voting for Labour was committing a sin against the Lord and would literally burn in hell.

Got it.

More recently, of course, he’s donated £25,000 of his own money to Hamas.

Nothing about burning in hell, he’s just using rhetoric to point out that people who claim to be Christians shouldn’t vote for a bunch of war criminals. I think that’s a perfectly sensible sentiment.

And he gave £25000 in humanitarian aid to help people currently (still) suffering collective punishment, a crime we put Nazis on trial for at the end of WW2. Well done George.

[yojimbo]

@Gyrate

Thisis particularly relevant. You underestimate George Galloway’s ability to shred his opponents in any forum at your peril, as many of his political and media opponents indeed have.

Indeed. Galloway is a very talented debater. He’s very articulate and extremly forceful. He’s being doing this all his life and has gained a lot of support because of it.

Here’s two examples.

Galloway V’s the US Senate This is a powerhouse performance. It got a lot of play at the time. He even grandstanded outside the Senate and lit a Cuban cigar on the steps and gave a press conference, this may seem like a small thing but it played very well outside the US.
Galloway V’s Sky News

His facts may be wrong but he gives very powerful performances which has gained him a lot of support especially when the war was raging and the UK population were very against it.

[Walker_in_Eternity]

@yastobaal

Anyways, to answer the question. I’m in the Henley area (which was Boris Johnson’s). Labour have no chance in this area and I’m fairly sure it is considered to be a Conservative safe seat. That said, I’ve no confidence in the Tory’s to do a good job so I’m leaning towards Lib Dems or spoiling my vote.

I have the same problem, I don’t like what the Labour party has become over the last 12 years, I don’t like the Tories particularly either, so I guess it will be Lib Dem or spoil my vote.

I’m in the Bosworth constituency which has been held by the same Tory for years, we never get a Monster Raving Loony party candidate so I can’t even do a protest vote.

[Mr.Kobayashi]

@Dick_Dastardly

He’s done pretty well for a fringe crackpot. He had a national radio show for years during his crackpot years and is a regular guest on national political programs like Question Time. That doesn’t sound like fringe crackpottery to me.

Like I said, he is very skilled at what he does. I disagree with a lot of what he says but he is incredible forceful will his views and can steamroll anyone in his way. Much more suspect people than Galloway are elected to office and appear on Question Time, so that’s no argument against his views - just that he has them and people agree with them.

@ivan_astikov

He’s only a crackpot to those who disagree with his views. Time-old smear tactics from people who aren’t fit to lace his boots.

He’s smeared himself enough. Unless you agree with his views, which is your right in a democracy…likewise it’s my right to view a lying, semi-traitorous apologist for Islamic extremism, no matter how well put or how skilled rhetorically, as reprehensible. Watch the videos I linked to above. This sort of thing plays well to certain crowds. Here is is apologising for Ahmadinejad’s statements that "The Iranian presidential website quotes Ahmadinejad as saying

"the Zionist Regime of Israel faces a deadend and will under God's grace be wiped off the map." and "the Zionist Regime that is a usurper and illegitimate regime and a cancerous tumor should be wiped off the map."[105]"

And a man who;
“Under the administration of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Iran’s human rights record “has deteriorated markedly” according to the group Human Rights Watch,[4] and following the 2009 election protests there were reports of killing of demonstrators, the torture, rape and killing of detained protesters,[5][6] and the arrest and publicized mass trials of dozens of prominent opposition figures in which defendants “read confessions that bore every sign of being coerced.” [7][8][9]”
And here’s more apologising, this time over the elections, where he blames the west for blowing it out of proportion - all the which acknowledging the protesters in Iran as Iranian citizens, so something of a contradiction there to me it seems.

@Dick_Dastardly

Nothing about burning in hell, he’s just using rhetoric to point out that people who claim to be Christians shouldn’t vote for a bunch of war criminals. I think that’s a perfectly sensible sentiment.

And he gave £25000 in humanitarian aid to help people currently (still) suffering collective punishment, a crime we put Nazis on trial for at the end of WW2. Well done George.

Without getting too much into the situation between Israelis and Palestinians, I’d be much more inclined to believe that if he hadn’t given it to an organisation classed by many governments (including the EU and US) as a terrorist organisation which supports suicide bombing and anti-Semitism (see here - wiki, but a load of cites). Not the kind of organisation I’d want £25,000 going to, it ain’t exactly Oxfam. This is not to deny the welfare actions of Hamas, but it’s naive to think that Galloway was donating for purely humanitarian reasons. Or, if he was, that his judgement is questionable to say the least.
His own statements (recorded here) also seem to disagree, “this is not charity, this is politics!” and “Revolution until victory” - the victory that Hamas seeks, made clear by numerous statements is the destruction of the state of Israel. If you agree with that it is your right to do so, but lets be clear what we’re talking about.

[Dick_Dastardly]

@Mr.Kobayashi

Like I said, he is very skilled at what he does. I disagree with a lot of what he says but he is incredible forceful will his views and can steamroll anyone in his way. Much more suspect people than Galloway are elected to office and appear on Question Time, so that’s no argument against his views - just that he has them and people agree with them.
Without getting too much into the situation between Israelis and Palestinians, I’d be much more inclined to believe that if he hadn’t given it to an organisation classed by many governments (including the EU and US) as a terrorist organisation which supports suicide bombing and anti-Semitism (see here - wiki, but a load of cites). Not the kind of organisation I’d want £25,000 going to, it ain’t exactly Oxfam. This is not to deny the welfare actions of Hamas, but it’s naive to think that Galloway was donating for purely humanitarian reasons. Or, if he was, that his judgement is questionable to say the least.
His own statements (recorded here) also seem to disagree, “this is not charity, this is politics!” and “Revolution until victory” - the victory that Hamas seeks, made clear by numerous statements is the destruction of the state of Israel. If you agree with that it is your right to do so, but lets be clear what we’re talking about.

So the British parliament is full of fringe crackpots? Who knew?

And Galloway is giving humanitarian aid to the elected government of the Palestinian territories like a whole bunch of international charities are. They took a huge convoy of vans to Gaza full of stuff donated by British citizens too. Whatever rhetoric Galloway is using to describe it is irrelevant

[Mr.Kobayashi]

@Dick_Dastardly

So the British parliament is full of fringe crackpots? Who knew?

And Galloway is giving humanitarian aid to the elected government of the Palestinian territories like a whole bunch of international charities are. They took a huge convoy of vans to Gaza full of stuff donated by British citizens too. Whatever rhetoric Galloway is using to describe it is irrelevant

Not once did I even imply that; Respect - The Unity Coalition, Galloway’s party, has only one member of Parliament - him. Out of 646 this isn’t ‘full of’. He was expelled from the Labour Party in 2003 over rather stupid comments like “… the best thing British troops can do is to refuse to obey illegal orders.”[20] and “Iraq is fighting for all the Arabs. Where are the Arab armies?”.[22].

His rhetoric is what he hangs is hat on, I wouldn’t call it irrelevant. I also said that I am not dismissing the humanitarian wing of Hamas, but by the same token neither can you dismiss its militant wing. Whether you like it or not he has given money to an organisation which supports violence, including suicide bombings.

The organization generally targets deeply religious young men—although some bombers have been older. The recruits do not fit the usual psychological profile of suicidal people, who are often desperate or clinically depressed. Hamas bombers often hold paying jobs, even in poverty-stricken Gaza. What they have in common, studies say, is an intense hatred of Israel. After a bombing, Hamas gives the family of the suicide bomber between three thousand dollars and five thousand dollars and assures them their son died a martyr in holy jihad.

The recruits undergo intense religious indoctrination, attend lectures, and undertake long fasts. The week before the bombing, the volunteers are watched closely by two Hamas activists for any signs of wavering, according to Nasra Hassan, writing in the New Yorker. Shortly before the “sacred explosion,” as Hamas calls it, the bomber records a video testament. To draw inspiration, he repeatedly watches his video and those made by his predecessors and then sets off for his would-be martyrdom after performing a ritual ablution and donning clean clothes. Hamas clerics assure the bombers their deaths will be painless and that dozens of virgins await them in paradise. The average bombing costs about $150.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/8968/#p7
So he’s covered the cost of about 5 suicide bombings. They have electoral support, but that is no justification (and even if it was, Hamas is far from the only political force in Palestine which enjoys popular support).

[ivan_astikov]

George Galloway’s biggest fault is that he is too honest with his opinions to be a successful politician, in a field where lying and misdirection are the norm whenever they think they might get away with it.

[Mr.Kobayashi]

@ivan_astikov

George Galloway’s biggest fault is that he is too honest with his opinions to be a successful politician, in a field where lying and misdirection are the norm whenever they think they might get away with it.

Nonsense. I’ll concede that Galloway is adept at the arts politic, but to pretend he doesn’t use ‘the norm’ tactics of lying and misdirection is nonsense.

See this interview where the interviewer asks him if Iraq would be better off under Saddam, a question he wouldn’t answer (and says that he’s “never been a supporter” of Saddam), which is a flat out lie - if “saluting” someone’s “courage, strength and indefatigably” and “heartfelt fraternal greetings and support” isn’t supporting someone then I don’t know what is.

His opinions in themselves are pretty abhorrent. In an interview with the makers of the Dispatches “Undercover Mosque” series, when confronted with statements made by radical Muslims all he can do is apologise for them and say that the Old Testament has similar statements. These mosques, by the way, or the same places where the 7/7 bombers came in contact with fanatics at places like this which also call for death and violence.

[Dick_Dastardly]

@Mr.Kobayashi

Not once did I even imply that; Respect - The Unity Coalition, Galloway’s party, has only one member of Parliament - him. Out of 646 this isn’t ‘full of’. He was expelled from the Labour Party in 2003 over rather stupid comments like “… the best thing British troops can do is to refuse to obey illegal orders.”[20] and “Iraq is fighting for all the Arabs. Where are the Arab armies?”.[22].

His rhetoric is what he hangs is hat on, I wouldn’t call it irrelevant. I also said that I am not dismissing the humanitarian wing of Hamas, but by the same token neither can you dismiss its militant wing. Whether you like it or not he has given money to an organisation which supports violence, including suicide bombings.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/8968/#p7
So he’s covered the cost of about 5 suicide bombings. They have electoral support, but that is no justification (and even if it was, Hamas is far from the only political force in Palestine which enjoys popular support).

You said there are even bigger crackpots than Galloway elected to office and appearing on Question Time.

And trying to claim money given to a democratically elected government as humanitarian aid is really going to fund suicide bombings is just pathetic. There are dozens of international charities giving aid to Gaza, are they all funding suicide bombings too? How about the US giving $300 million in aid to Gaza? That’s a lot of suicide bombings.

And Galloway wasn’t saluting Saddam’s courage, he was talking about the courage of the Iraqi people.

[Mr.Kobayashi]

@Dick_Dastardly

You said there are even bigger crackpots than Galloway elected to office and appearing on Question Time.

And trying to claim money given to a democratically elected government as humanitarian aid is really going to fund suicide bombings is just pathetic. There are dozens of international charities giving aid to Gaza, are they all funding suicide bombings too? How about the US giving $300 million in aid to Gaza? That’s a lot of suicide bombings.

And Galloway wasn’t saluting Saddam’s courage, he was talking about the courage of the Iraqi people.

Indeed there are. A member of an elected office, an MEP. Nowhere did I specify Parliament. I could probably find more, depending on your definition of crackpot.

Hamas supports suicide bombing. Financially as well as politically and ideologically. By giving this organisation money you are approving of their methods. I know they were elected and do humanitarian work, all of which is rather irrelevant to me, as they are a terrorist organisation which breaks ceasefires and convinces young men to blow themselves up. To steal an analogy from Stephen Fry, it’s rather like a burglar in court saying ‘You would bring up that burglary, you never mention the fact I give my father a birthday present.’
Cite that the U.S. gave $300 million to Hamas. As I said I’m all for humanitarian aid to Gaza and the Palestinian people, but if you think this organisation is the best way to do it you need to seriously examine their aims and methods.

You’re twisting Galloway’s words as much as he twists Ahmadinejad’s. He looks straight at Saddam and begins “Sir I salute your courage…”
He’s also palled it up Saddam’s son Uday, another nasty piece of work.

[Mr.Kobayashi]

@Mr.Kobayashi

Cite that the U.S. gave $300 million to Hamas.

Actually, don’t bother.

PolitiFact - Republican National Committee claims Obama administration...

Here’s how that money would be split: $200 million to the Palestinian Authority to address part of its 2009 budget shortfall; $400 million “to help the Palestinian Authority solidify economic and institutional reforms in the West Bank”; and $300 million in humanitarian aid for Gaza following January’s 22-day violent conflict between Israel and the Islamic militant group Hamas. The humanitarian aid to Gaza would be distributed primarily through U.N. agencies and nongovernmental organizations. The strategy, according to State Department officials, was to specifically make sure the money did not go to Hamas.

In testimony before the Senate Appropriations Committee on April 30, Clinton assured that disbursement of the money “will be implemented with stringent requirements to prevent aid from being diverted into the wrong hands.”

Translation: Hamas.

The money is specifically not being handed directly to Hamas as Galloway did. It is a false equivalent, even if some does manage to find its way into Hamas hands.

Steven A. Cook, a senior fellow at the nonpartisan Council on Foreign Relations and an expert in U.S.-Middle East policy, said there are legitimate concerns about aid ending up in the hands of Hamas. The problem, he said, is that supposed nongovernmental groups that purport not to have ties with Hamas sometimes do.

“We have yet to devise a foolproof system to ensure that money doesn’t bleed out,” Cook said.

Still, he said, it’s a wild distortion to claim that the United States has offered Hamas $900 million. First of all, most of the $900 million is going to the West Bank, not Gaza. And while some of the humanitarian aid disbursed through U.N. and other nongovernmental agencies could “bleed out” to Hamas unintentionally, that’s far different from giving money directly to Hamas.

Specifically humanitarian aid distributed through the U.N. and N.G.Os, for aid. £25,000 given straight to Hamas to do what they like with the message that “This is not charity, this is politics!” and “revolution until victory!” are worlds apart.

Just to clarify for the lawyers, I am not accusing the £25,000 of directly funding suicide bombing, just of being the equivalent cost of about 5. But that the organisation Hamas supports suicide bombing is not in question.

Hopefully we can somewhat move on from this hijack.

[Dick_Dastardly]

@Mr.Kobayashi

Indeed there are. A member of an elected office, an MEP. Nowhere did I specify Parliament. I could probably find more, depending on your definition of crackpot.

Hamas supports suicide bombing. Financially as well as politically and ideologically. By giving this organisation money you are approving of their methods. I know they were elected and do humanitarian work, all of which is rather irrelevant to me, as they are a terrorist organisation which breaks ceasefires and convinces young men to blow themselves up. To steal an analogy from Stephen Fry, it’s rather like a burglar in court saying ‘You would bring up that burglary, you never mention the fact I give my father a birthday present.’
Cite that the U.S. gave $300 million to Hamas. As I said I’m all for humanitarian aid to Gaza and the Palestinian people, but if you think this organisation is the best way to do it you need to seriously examine their aims and methods.

You’re twisting Galloway’s words as much as he twists Ahmadinejad’s. He looks straight at Saddam and begins “Sir I salute your courage…”
He’s also palled it up Saddam’s son Uday, another nasty piece of work.

OK, you managed to name one guy, somebody whose appearance on the show sparked a national furore and somebody who could never be elected to national office in Britain. Galloway appears regularly with nobody blinking an eye.

And it’s irrelevant that Hamas are responsible for acts of terrorism. They’re also reponsible for the people of Gaza and the dozens of charities that are sending them aid and the $300 million the US are giving to Gaza in aid will end up being disbursed by them. That does not make those charities or the US supporters of suicide bombings. And I don’t think any fair person would be upset that the government of a people currently facing a collective punishment starvation regime from an ongoing 40 year military occupation were given humanitarian aid by Galloway.

I could easily make a case that giving billions of dollars in aid to a country carrying out collective punishment that’s literally causing chronic malnutrition with thousands of children suffering stunted growth is a terrible thing to do, but that position – criticising the US for aiding Israel – would be seen by many as taking an extreme or anti-American position, blaming America for something somebody else is doing. And that’s what you’re doing here. You’re blaming Galloway for something he has no connection with, you’re taking an extreme position on his humanitarian aid to smear him because you don’t like him.

I’m not twisting any words, Galloway’s words were twisted to make him sound like a Saddam supporter in the first place. And the Uday Hussein thing is silly too. So he met him on a humanitarian visit to Iraq, so what? That doesn’t mean he’s palling around with him, that’s just an attempt to smear Galloway. Donald Rumsfeld wasn’t palling around with Saddam when he shook hands with him after the Halabja massacre, was he? It’s obvious you don’t like the man but domestic politics aside his anti-war and pro-Palestinian positions have been supported by either a majority or a significant minority of British people.

[Dick_Dastardly]

@Mr.Kobayashi

Actually, don’t bother.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jul/14/republican-national-committee-republican/RNC-poll-Hamas-Gaza/
The money is specifically not being handed directly to Hamas as Galloway did. It is a false equivalent, even if some does manage to find its way into Hamas hands.
Specifically humanitarian aid distributed through the U.N. and N.G.Os, for aid. £25,000 given straight to Hamas to do what they like with the message that “This is not charity, this is politics!” and “revolution until victory!” are worlds apart.

Just to clarify for the lawyers, I am not accusing the £25,000 of directly funding suicide bombing, just of being the equivalent cost of about 5. But that the organisation Hamas supports suicide bombing is not in question.

Hopefully we can somewhat move on from this hijack.

You can’t put hundreds of millions into Gaza and not end up giving Hamas a huge chunk of that. So effectively the US are giving Hams far more funding than Galloway.

And if you’re not accusing Galloway of directly funding suicide bombing then we can foget the whole smear, it doesn’t matter anymore. We both agree he was just giving them humanitarian aid.

[Mr.Kobayashi]

@Dick_Dastardly

OK, you managed to name one guy, somebody whose appearance on the show sparked a national furore and somebody who could never be elected to national office in Britain. Galloway appears regularly with nobody blinking an eye.

He was elected to office.

And it’s irrelevant that Hamas are responsible for acts of terrorism.

No it isn’t. Terrorism has the unpleasant effect of killing people and disrupting the peace process.

They’re also reponsible for the people of Gaza and the dozens of charities that are sending them aid and the $300 million the US are giving to Gaza in aid will end up being disbursed by them.

Did you miss my post above? If it ‘ends up’ in their hands it is not by design. I doubt the U.S. wants their taxpayer dollars going to an organisation that doesn’t want one of their allies to even exist. Dispute the rights and wrongs of that, but it’s the practicality.

That does not make those charities or the US supporters of suicide bombings.

I never said it did. Because they don’t give directly to Hamas for that very reason.

And I don’t think any fair person would be upset that the government of a people currently facing a collective punishment starvation regime from an ongoing 40 year military occupation were given humanitarian aid by Galloway.

Separate issue. If you think that violence is the best way to deal with it say it openly.

I could easily make a case that giving billions of dollars in aid to a country carrying out collective punishment that’s literally causing chronic malnutrition with thousands of children suffering stunted growth is a terrible thing to do, but that position – criticising the US for aiding Israel – would be seen by many as taking an extreme or anti-American position, blaming America for something somebody else is doing. And that’s what you’re doing here. You’re blaming Galloway for something he has no connection with, you’re taking an extreme position on his humanitarian aid to smear him because you don’t like him.

I’m pointing out his stated, recording positions and saying I don’t like them. I don’t care if you criticise the U.S. for supporting Israel, I may even agree with you on many points there. Doesn’t make blowing yourself on a crowded bus the best way of dealing with the issue right, and I take issue with anyone who supports an organisation which has taken that stance. More on Galloway’s donation:

* In February and March 2009, Galloway led the Viva Palestina convoy to Gaza that gave cash and vehicles directly to the Hamas government. At a press conference announcing the donations, Galloway  said he personally would donate three cars and £25,000 to Hamas. Galloway also met with Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, who reportedly gave Galloway a Palestinian passport. On footage shown on Israeli TV, Galloway is heard saying, "Not only are you the prime minister of Palestine, but you are our prime minister, too." 

* In July 2006, during the Lebanon War, Galloway wrote an op-ed in the Socialist Worker in which he praised Hezbollah as being on the side of "resistance to [Israel's] injustice." The article concluded with: "I glorify the Hizbollah national resistance movement, and I glorify the leader of Hizbollah, Sheikh Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah." 

* In December 2003 Galloway participated in a pro-"resistance" conference in Cairo that featured Hamas officials, an Iraqi ambassador and far-left American antiwar activists from the International Action Center. The conference was premised on the legitimacy of Palestinian and Iraqi resistance against the allegedly imperialist forces of Israel and the U.S. 

http://www.adl.org/main_Anti_Israel/galloway_us_tour_09.htm?Multi_page_sections=sHeading_5
His intention in words and deeds is clear. How many poor Palestinians are his three cars helping? It’s going directly to Hamas and not through any NGO organisation or the UN which could regulate the donation and see that money would get to vulnerable, if that was his intention. Which I doubt.

I’m not twisting any words, Galloway’s words were twisted to make him sound like a Saddam supporter in the first place. And the Uday Hussein thing is silly too. So he met him on a humanitarian visit to Iraq, so what? That doesn’t mean he’s palling around with him, that’s just an attempt to smear Galloway. Donald Rumsfeld wasn’t palling around with Saddam when he shook hands with him after the Halabja massacre, was he? It’s obvious you don’t like the man but domestic politics aside his anti-war and pro-Palestinian positions have been supported by either a majority or a significant minority of British people.

It’s hard to twist someone’s words when they are right there for all to see. I only reported what was said, I’ve never lied about what he said. On Uday; “Very nice to see you again”? You may see joking about weight loss with a murderer and psychopath (it’s just a shame he didn’t survive to stand trial like dear old dad) a trivial matter for someone standing for the British Parliament, I’m afraid I cannot. It speaks to his character, lack of judgement or both.

[Mr.Kobayashi]

@Dick_Dastardly

You can’t put hundreds of millions into Gaza and not end up giving Hamas a huge chunk of that. So effectively the US are giving Hams far more funding than Galloway.

And if you’re not accusing Galloway of directly funding suicide bombing then we can foget the whole smear, it doesn’t matter anymore. We both agree he was just giving them humanitarian aid.

I’m not accusing him of funding suicide bombing, but of giving money to an organisation which supports this tactic. I still find this reprehensible. Neither can I agree that he was giving them purely humanitarian aid, I think it’s clear that he wants the money to be used for political purposes.

I don’t disagree that a lot of this money will end up in the hands of Hamas, but this is not by design but by the nature of Palestine at the moment, there’s no foolproof system to stop the money going into ‘the wrong hands’, but at least there is an effort via NGOs and the UN, not to mention an explicit purpose for the money.

[ColdPhoenix]

I came out of a newsagents in my local market on Saturday to find myself surrounded by local Bangladeshis, two photographers and a gruff, bearded Scotsman. I got out of there as quickly as possible but as I looked back I found it funny that he was the one white face in a sea of brown, they were swarming around him like he was a great hero.

I think we can all agree that he’s controversial and (whether you agree with his views or not) he’s done a lot to get the Bangladeshi population engaged in politics (which is good).

[Lust4Life]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

Why didn’t you stand yourself?

I wasn’t sane enough for the MRLP.