British Dopers, are things in the UK as bad as this Harper's article says they are?

[Illuminatiprimus]

@Lust4Life

But you DO discuss your philisophical/religious beliefs etc.with people that you don’t know.

You’ve done so on these very boards, how else would I know about your sexuality, Satanism, and for that matter your job ?

And how many people on this board know me in reality? What impact does it have in my day to day life?

And if you have indeed counted many Poles amongst your friends then I’m sure you must at some stage discussed those subjects with them.

When you assume, you make an ass out of you and me.

If people withold fundamental information about themselves with someone else then that doesn’t indicate friendship in most peoples eyes, but at best aquaintenceship.

(And not a very close aquaintenceship at that)

Personally I believe that it’d be a very boring world if everyone was the same,and people like yourself are a breath of fresh air.

But I stand corrected, though I must admit to being just a little bit surprised.

There is plenty about me that I don’t volunteer to everyone who knows me, it doesn’t mean that I’m lying to them, just that they don’t know everything. My views wrt Satanism inform my whole world out look, you can know me as a Satanist without me saying “I’m a Satanist”. I’m not saying this because I’m furiously backpedalling on anything I’ve said, but because you’re making a huge number of assumptions about me, how I live my life and what I consequently might know about this topic, and you’re drawing incorrect conclusions as a result.

But my personal feelings don’t alter the fact that that cheap migrant labour, often with false qualifications, and who are prepared to work without basic working welfare provisions, or obey Health and Safety legislation, that and who spend the barest minimum in our economy, are a serious threat to that very economy, and have set back working conditions for the ordinary person by at the very least decades.

If of course that person can get a job in the first place.

If employment conditions were a level playing field then it would be a very different kettle of fish, but they aren’t and there doesn’t seem to be any liklihood of it anytime in the future.

I’m not really disagreeing with you, but what you’re describing is a function of economics. If migrant labourers will do jobs for next to nothing legally (and they will - how do you think most of our fruit and vegetables are picked in this country?) that in itself says a lot about the labour market in this country. I agree that it shouldn’t be enough to simply say “well it’s the market innit” and pay virtually nothing to migrant labour when there are natives who don’t have work.

But it’s really not as simple as you describe, and decrying Poles as falsifying information, claiming benefits falsely and serving effectively as parasites on the country because they don’t invest their money isn’t really a fair charge against them because I don’t think it’s bourne out in evidence. They don’t NEED to lie and cheat to have the position in our labour market they do, if anything the strong work ethic of the eastern european workers is what’s causing the problem - that is they have one, and we don’t. We can’t compete in the low paid market of jobs, and we lose out. The idea is to ensure that there are enough skilled jobs for the rest of us to do, but as that would require doing more than simply maintaining the status quo of letting well placed middle class people dominate the best jobs it’s not likely to happen any time soon (and I speak as someone working within the field of education).

[Lust4Life]

A quick couple of points because we’re generally in agrement here.

Yes I do make assumptions, I make them every day.

I asume that the suns going to come up, that my corner shop won’t have been destroyed by a gas explosion, for that matter that I’m going to be alive tomorrow.
An assumption that will be wrong one day.

As to E.Europeans, yes I’d agree that in general they ARE harder workers then our native born school leavers, and those only a few years out of school, but IMPE of them in the construction industry and shipbuilding they’re less hard working then the average native ADULT worker, but are considerably cheaper to employ.

I’ve seen the t.v. reports where the crew interview the local layabouts about their not taking jobs crop picking, and for all I know that might be the case in those areas.
There I have no personal experience.

But as a sceptic who has journo mates, I know that they can interview the right people to get the result that their editors want.

Want someone to rant about Muslims, the E.C., greedy bankers or how small businesses are penalised by the government ?

They’ll find the right people to talk to almost by instinct, just as they’ll find the right people to praise “our boys and girls on the frontline”, or furvent anti monarchists.

So as I say I’'m always a bit wary when they trot out the “usual suspects” who we’re all expected to believe are randomly chosen, and have the average mind set for the working population in general .

My own personal, and pretty extensive experience would suggest otherwise.

[SciFiSam]

@Lust4Life

A quick couple of points because we’re generally in agrement here.

Yes I do make assumptions, I make them every day.

I asume that the suns going to come up, that my corner shop won’t have been destroyed by a gas explosion, for that matter that I’m going to be alive tomorrow.
An assumption that will be wrong one day.

As to E.Europeans, yes I’d agree that in general they ARE harder workers then our native born school leavers, and those only a few years out of school, but IMPE of them in the construction industry and shipbuilding they’re less hard working then the average native ADULT worker, but are considerably cheaper to employ.

I’ve seen the t.v. reports where the crew interview the local layabouts about their not taking jobs crop picking, and for all I know that might be the case in those areas.
There I have no personal experience.

But as a sceptic who has journo mates, I know that they can interview the right people to get the result that their editors want.

Want someone to rant about Muslims, the E.C., greedy bankers or how small businesses are penalised by the government ?

They’ll find the right people to talk to almost by instinct, just as they’ll find the right people to praise “our boys and girls on the frontline”, or furvent anti monarchists.

So as I say I’'m always a bit wary when they trot out the “usual suspects” who we’re all expected to believe are randomly chosen, and have the average mind set for the working population in general .

My own personal, and pretty extensive experience would suggest otherwise.

(Re: the bolded bit) It is the case.

The farmers offer pennies, expect really long hours - that’s the nature of the job - and the job lasts for a few weeks. It would mean losing all your benefits and having to reclaim - and housing benefit in particular can take a long time to reclaim - and getting very little out of it. It’s also a time of year when the kids are off school, so parents can’t do that job (you can’t take the kids with you these days), and there is actually a fair amount of other summer work available in the same areas, work which isn’t as short-term, pays better, and has better working conditions and more potential to turn into a permanent job.

It’s a job designed for students and migrants. But the media acts as though it’s a sign of Brits being lazy. Simplistic thinking in the media? Say it ain’t so!