British English: Pudding, Biscuits, Cookies anyone?

Factual Questions
41

Okay, boys and girls, let’s all just write this out a few times before it gets out of hand:

desert, dry place, loads of sand, camels etc.

dessert, the sweet or puddingy bit of the meal after the main course

To answer the OP…

Until recently, all British English speakers used ‘biscuit’ to mean what ‘cookie’ means in American English. More recently, due to the normal process of linguistic and commercial adoption, we have started to use ‘cookie’ as well, and nowadays we would understand either term. However, for the time being, ‘biscuit’ remains the more common expression, especially for anyone over 30.

‘Pudding’ usually means something sweet and stodgy which would be the dessert course of a meal. However, as several Dopers have stated, there are a small number of savoury items which are called ‘[something] pudding’.

42

RedDevil asks:

> What do Americans call the sitting room?

The living room.

ianzin writes:

> Until recently, all British English speakers used ‘biscuit’ to mean
> what ‘cookie’ means in American English.

Well, again, “biscuit” in British English is used for both what Americans call “cookies” and “crackers.”

43

Wendell, the “British English” to which you refer is actually “English English” - in other words “English”. In Maryland you speak “American English”.

balor, Twisty’s correct: you are Kevin Myers.

As an ex-pat Englishman (meaning real English, not this wannabe Southsider nonsense) I can report that, as a rule, Irish biscuits suck big-time. Kimberlys are not too bad, but I accidentally ate a big big box of them once, so I’ve been somewhat put off.

But please, somebody, tell me what the fuck’s going on with Mikados??? They’re like the result of the Teletubbies playing ‘soggy biscuit’. Bleauugh.

44

First and most importantly: Jaffa Cakes. The best I can figure is that one of the ingredients is crack cocaine, as it seems to be impossible to leave a package unfinished. (And they’re cakes, dammit!)

“Jaffa”, for our US audience, is a term for a seedless orange. And occasionally a derogatory term for an infertile man (from the “seedless” connotation). Which makes watching “Stargate SG1” unintentionally amusing at times.

Next: biscuits. Not only does the British term “biscuits” encompass an assortment of cookie and cookie-like products, plus dry crackery things (sometimes labelled “Biscuits for Cheese”), but also (sometimes) includes candy/chocolate bars which have baked interiors. Which means that in some supermarkets KitKat and Twix bars (“chocolate biscuits”) are in a different aisle than, say, Mars bars. Very weird.

What the British call “crackers” are paper tubes filled with cheap toys, paper hats, bad jokes, and a small explosive charge which two people pull apart (like a wishbone) at Christmas dinner. These are not edible, I hasten to add.

Crumpets are like English muffins, only squishier. You can buy both in many supermarkets.

Trying to explain to a British person what “pudding” is in America (“It’s sort of like a firmer custard, but in different flavors…or like a thicker mousse…”) is like trying to explain the game of cricket to an American. Some things are just too foreign to comprehend.

On that note: any food product prefaced with the name of a foreign country will bear no relation to any foodstuff available in that country, unless they’ve been imported there from elsewhere. So none of the various products labelled “American” or “American-style” in British stores are available in American, or even palatable to most Americans.

[rant]
There is a special circle in culinary hell for the person who invented “American Ginger Ale”. Who thought that putting sugar, saccherine AND aspertame in the same product was a good idea?
[/rant]

And finally: if OED English = British English, how come the OED prefers -ize word endings to -ise?

45

I claimed that we speak and write the best English in the world in my home territory in Dublin. It’s an old claim, but we pretend that it is only a joke, to encourage the rest of you to try harder.

But how does that quirk of ours lead to the above quote? Our claim clearly means that we are Irishmen who are proud of our country’s achievements. Our pride is what Irish patriotism is about, not an outdated obsession about a neighbouring state in the EU. :rolleyes:

Let’s get back to the OP.

46

I AM ENGLISH. I EAT BISCUITS. I EAT PUDDING POTATO NOT PO-TAH-TO YAY!!

48

Oh good. I didn’t even realise term had ended here.

49

U WOT YOU STUPID YANKY DOODLE

51

Is anyone running a book on how long it takes Jonathan ross to get banned? Surely a single-figure post count.

52

Can I just say Wagon Wheels

53

You keep Wagon Wheels in a press.

54

Do the English use the term “Minerals” for Fizzy drinks eg Coke, Fanta. It comes from Mineral Water.

A great Irish phrase is a “a tin of minerals” eg a can of coke.

55

Have you gone “down the pub” yet

56

Sorry Mr. Myers, fire your copy editor. George Bernard Shaw is actually responsible for that quote.

So what is your type of Irish Patiotism?

57

I don’t think he called Englishmen and Americans “races” either. “Two people”, perhaps?

58

the full quote

“England and America are two countries separated by the same language.” – George Bernard Shaw

59

jjimm writes:

> Wendell, the “British English” to which you refer is
> actually “English English” - in other words “English”. In
> Maryland you speak “American English”.

Well, no. That’s not the standard way of differentiating the dialects. I have a master’s degree in linguistics (and, incidentally, I lived in England for three years). It’s standard for linguists to refer to dialects as Dialect Language. So the dialect spoken in most of Spain is Castilian Spanish, while the dialect spoken in Latin America is Latin American Spanish. The dialect spoken in Paris is Parisian French, while the dialect spoken in Montreal in Quebecois French. The dialect of English spoken in the U.K. is British English, while the dialect spoken in the U.S. is American English. Of course, you can break down these dialects into smaller divisions. Latin American Spanish can be broken down into Puerto Rican Spanish, Mexican Spanish, Cuban Spanish, etc. British English can be broken down into Welsh English, Scots English, Midlands English, Estuary English (Thames Valley), etc. Saying that a particular dialect of English is English, and everything else is some bizarre dialect is simply not the way it’s done by anybody with modern training in linguistics (and the same is true for any other language). If you want to argue about it, that would be a Great Debate. Start a thread there for that argument. We’ve already answered the question here.

60

I am not Kevin Myers, but I thank you for the compliment.

In fact, Shaw worked up a comment by Wilde in the Canterville Ghost story, and the concept is usually attributed to Wilde. It is also attributed to Bertrand Russell, Winston Churchill, and many others. It takes many forms - there is no “correct” version. A good quip has more fathers than the Pope’s funeral.

You are supporting my point, because Shaw was a Dubliner too. I bet he and Wilde both stole the line off some oul’ fella in a Dublin pub.

Irish patriotism has nothing to do with this thread. However, patriotism means “love of or zealous devotion to one’s country” according to my Shorter OED. It is the same as in Irish - “tirghra”, literally “country love”. That’s how I feel about Ireland, loving and proud to be Irish. I am especially proud of the new Ireland we have made, which has taken its place among the nations.

Is there another type of patriotism? If it involves the IRA shooting more babies, I guess I don’t want to go there.

Tirghra should have an accent on the a, but I can’t do it here. It’s an Irish accent. :smiley:

61

Well didn’t I pick the wrong person to argue with… :wink:

But what I was referring to was the derivation of the language: English is from England. My experience in the US is that many people don’t make the connection between the country from which the language is derived, and the language’s name.

Furthermore, the concept of British English is, I presume, geographical only, as, from observation, East-coast American English and English spoken in (the South of) England are closer to each other than Scots English is to either of them. So when people say “British English” it’s so vastly sweeping as to be a misnomer.

62

jjimm writes:

> My experience in the US is that many people don’t make the
> connection between the country from which the language is
> derived, and the language’s name.

Perhaps, but all this shows is that there are stupid people everywhere. These may be the same people who believe that if English was good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for them.

Incidentally, “English” comes from the name of the Angles, who invaded England in about 500 A.D. “England” also comes from the same source.

> So when people say “British English” it’s so vastly sweeping as
> to be a misnomer.

Perhaps. The problem here is that a hierarchical model of dialects is misleading. Dialect A can have certain features in common with dialect B, which can have certain features in common with dialect C, which can have certain features in common with dialect D, etc. Certainly, there are features in American English which are shared with the English of southern England and which aren’t shared with Scots English. But there are features which the English of southern England shares with Scots English which aren’t shared with American English. In any case, my point is that there is nothing which can be called just “English,” while everything else is some bizarre dialect of it. We all speak some dialect of English.