British English: What Does "Wotcher" Mean?

[Axel]

@Colibri

Of course, most people would find the complete lack of evidence for any other derivation much more problematic, but what the hey.

You know, I really would like to dig for the other possible source, but it’s not feasible to search for ‘what are you up to’ in various forms. ‘Cheer’ is an uncommon word that’s easy to sift through for; ‘what are you up to’ could hardly be more mundane and unsearchable.

@Excalibre

If you think that this is a powerful argument, I think you have an inadequate understanding of how language works when you look at it up close.

I never said it was a powerful argument. It just means that the Shakespeare quote was not necessarily an example of it being used in Cockney. And I siad this as a quibble, after stating - repeatedly - that I accept Blake’s evidence as ‘good enough.’ Certainly the phrase could have travelled from one region to another, but, you know, it could have not travelled either.

(especially when no evidence has been cited to suggest that the book character actually is meant to be speaking Cockney - or rather, the descendent of Cockney referred to in the literature as “Saaf Lunnon”)

FYI: the character must be speaking or affecting Cockney (like some posher types do). ‘Wotcha’ is not a phrase from any other English dialect other than Cockney (and the wider London area, post-war). Do you want a cite for that?

Northerners may have used ‘what cheer,’ but they would never say ‘wotcha.’ If the word originated with them, why do Cockneys say ‘wotcha’ and Northerners don’t?

(snip) … when it was in fact attested in quite a number of other dialects is simply not an argument at all. The lack of a cite in the case of one particular dialect is not an important matter at all when it’s so thoroughly been found in many, many other nearby areas.

‘Many many’? Over-reaching there. Look at the cites:

@Blake

OED

1894 A. CHEVALIER Humorous Songs 4 ‘Wot cher!’ all the neighbours cried, ‘Who’re yer goin’ to meet, Bill?’ 1899 North-China Herald 13 Nov. 962/3 (Advt.), ‘Wot Cher, Mate?’ may be a rough form of salutation. 1928 Granta 2 Nov. 71 (caption) Wotcher! 1954 J. MASTERS Bhowani Junction xxxii. 279 Howland waved violently to Victoria…and shouted, ‘Wotcher, Vicky!’ 1977 ‘J. GASH’ Judas Pair iii. 38 ‘Watcha, Lovejoy.’ ‘Come in, Tinker.’ 1980 ‘J. GASH’ Spend Game xvi. 162 ‘Hello, Lovejoy.’ ‘Wotcher, love.’

Two regions at most - it’s not clear where the first quote is from. (The characters quoted from Bhowani Junction and Lovejoy have the same dialects).

c1440 York Myst. xiv. 85 Say Marie doghtir, what chere with {th}e. …c1460 Towneley Myst. (1836) 109 A, Gylle, what chere? … c1530 LD. BERNERS Arth. Lyt. Bryt. (1814) 28 What chere make you, fayre loue Jehannet. …1610 SHAKES. Temp. I. i. 2 Heere Master: What cheere? … 1805 WORDSW. Waggoner 1, The same strong voice more near Said cordially, My Friend, what cheer?

3 regions at most, being generous. In any case, this:

c1440 York Myst. xiv. 85 Say Marie doghtir, what chere with {th}e. …c1460 Towneley Myst. (1836)

is not a greeting. And neither are these:

28 What chere make you, fayre loue Jehannet. …1610 SHAKES. Temp. I. i. 2 Heere Master: What cheere? … 1805 WORDSW. Waggoner 1, The same strong voice more near Said cordially, My Friend, what cheer?

The other one might or might not be a greeting; it’s not clear from context.

Where’s the progression? A greeting used in at most two regions from the end of the C19, and a phrase with different pronunciation not used as a greeting in different regions hundreds of years before? How does that prove or disprove anything?

[QUOTe]
It’s worse than that. We know that fircken’ play was being performed in London in Shakepeare’s lifetime. It didn’t need any time at all to ‘get’ to London.

The play being performed in London is irrelevent, unless the suggestion is that people got their language from plays rather than the other way round. Certainly, people do pick up catchphrases, but that particular line from Shakespeare was hardly one that would be repeated in the tavern.

First it’s derived from a question, then any phrase with a question is meaningless. He has brought nothing to this discussion at all aside from wild and erroneous assertions.

Jesus Christ.

Let me repeat:

Hello baby! What do you say, kid!

Not

Hello baby! What are you say, kid!

I have never argued that ‘wotcher’ comes from ‘what do you do.’ So, different phrase.

I only ever said it was from ‘what are you up to’ or possibly ‘what are you doing.’ Your example was a completely different phrase. I’ll repeat that again: that example was a completely different phrase.

(By the way, I’m a she, but I don’t expect people to guess that from my username).

I give up on Axel. He seems to have no idea what he is talking about and changes his position with every post.

I have changed my position - and said so. After your initial post I said:

Still, your cites are better. Despite my reservations, I’ll say they’re good enough to be reasonably certain of the etymology. Like I said before, I wasn’t certain.

Otherwise I’ve held my main position, which was ‘with those cites you cannot be certain, and it’s erroneous to suggest you are.’

I’ve provided the facts for anyone interested. I think we can leave it there.

You’ve provided inconclusive theories. The only reason I ever said they were ‘good enough’ was because of the number of cites and their seemingly reputable source, and because I have no wish to fight about it. Since you seem to not want to give up till I say ‘yes Blake, you’re right about everything, I’m not worthy,’ I looked deeper, and now your cites seem far less convincing. So yes, I am changing my position again, openly, which I would hope is a reasonable thing to do in (what has turned into) a debate. If only you’d stopped with your second post.

BTW, this thread is still in GQ, not the Pit, yes? The tone of the last couple of posts did make me wonder.

(I’m still amused by the idea that you thought I only knew the word ‘wotcha’ from Lovejoy).

Hope the coding in this damn long post is OK; I’m getting too many error messages to preview any more.

[toadspittle]

I say we forward this whole thread to the staff of the OED.

[Butterscotch]

wotcha! Exclam. A greeting. A shortening of what cheer! Also spelt wotcher. [Mainly London use]
http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/w.htm

[Kimstu]

@Axel

So yes, I am changing my position again, openly,

You mean, you no longer accept the contention that the expression “wotcher” is derived from “what cheer”?

Do you have any evidence to support an alternative derivation, then? As has been pointed out already, etymology is more a matter of reconstructing probable derivations from randomly preserved instances than of proving derivations beyond a shadow of a doubt.

But that doesn’t mean that any guess is as good as any other. The relationship between “what cheer” and “wotcher” is quite well attested, and you will need at least equally good evidence to make a serious, plausible case that “wotcher” is derived instead from a phrase like “what are you doing?” or “what are you up to?”.

@Axel

[…] is not a greeting. And neither are these:

“28 What chere make you, fayre loue Jehannet. …1610 SHAKES. Temp. I. i. 2 Heere Master: What cheere? … 1805 WORDSW. Waggoner 1, The same strong voice more near Said cordially, My Friend, what cheer?”

Huh? What is “what cheer” in these contexts if not a phrase of greeting? Here are somewhat fuller versions:

Actus primus, Scena prima.

A tempestuous noise of Thunder and Lightning heard: Enter a Ship-master, and a Boteswaine.

Master. Bote-swaine.

Botes. Heere Master: What cheere?

Mast. Good: Speake to th’ Mariners: fall too’t, yarely, or we run our selues a ground, bestirre, bestirre.

While, with increasing agitation,
The Woman urged her supplication,
In rueful words, with sobs between–
The voice of tears that fell unseen;
There came a flash–a startling glare,
And all Seat-Sandal was laid bare!
'Tis not a time for nice suggestion,
And Benjamin, without a question,
Taking her for some way-worn rover,
Said, “Mount, and get you under cover!”
Another voice, in tone as hoarse
As a swoln brook with rugged course,
Cried out, “Good brother, why so fast?
I’ve had a glimpse of you–‘avast!’
Or, since it suits you to be civil,
Take her at once–for good and evil!”
“It is my Husband,” softly said
The Woman, as if half afraid:
By this time she was snug within,
Through help of honest Benjamin;
She and her Babe, which to her breast
With thankfulness the Mother pressed;
And now the same strong voice more near
Said cordially, “My Friend, what cheer?
Rough doings these! as God’s my judge,
The sky owes somebody a grudge!
We’ve had in half an hour or less
A twelvemonth’s terror and distress!”

These uses seem exactly equivalent to “hey, how you doing?” or similar expressions of greeting. I really don’t see why you feel so strongly disposed to question the connection between “what cheer” and “wotcher”, other than from sheer pique at the tone of some of the posts.

[Hippy_Hollow]

HeyHomie, how did your experience at ABC Studios in NYC go?

[Axel]

@Kimstu

Do you have any evidence to support an alternative derivation, then?

As I’ve pointed out twice already, it’s pretty much impossible to search for uses of some of the most commonly-used words in the English language. I would if I coluld, but even with a research grant and a month’s time it would be difficult. Googling for them is absolutely impossible. Does anyone expect me to take a month unpaid off work to fruitless search for the uses of a phrase over the centuries? No? Then, in this case, asking for a cite is understandable, but fairly useless.

[quote]
As has been pointed out already, etymology is more a matter of reconstructing probable derivations from randomly preserved instances than of proving derivations beyond a shadow of a doubt.

That was my point all along. Funny that. Blake states his cites as fact. (He even uses the word fact). Others had far less falsifiable cites and still asserted them as beyond discussion. That was the whole point.

But that doesn’t mean that any guess is as good as any other. The relationship between “what cheer” and “wotcher” is quite well attested, and you will need at least equally good evidence to make a serious, plausible case that “wotcher” is derived instead from a phrase like “what are you doing?” or “what are you up to?”.

Again, it’s just not within my resources to do so. I realises that weakens my ‘case’ a lot, but there’s not much I can do about it.

Heere Master: What cheere?

And now the same strong voice more near
Said cordially, "My Friend, what cheer?

But they’re not greetings. You couldn’t have them without an introductory phrase: ‘heere master,’ or ‘my friend.’

I really don’t see why you feel so strongly disposed to question the connection between “what cheer” and “wotcher”, other than from sheer pique at the tone of some of the posts.

I admit that one of the reasons I’ve continued posting to this thread is due to the tone of the posts. They have been pretty negative towards me, more than this forum warrants. Considering that this a question about one single word, the tone has been strangely personal. Blake seems to want me (a stranger!) to say that his theory is fact - me saying it’s good enough is not, it seems, was good enough. I’ve lurked here a long time and I know that Blake has posted here for a long time. He should know better.

The other reason is that, although I am predisposed to bow to the knowledge of people with better resources to hand than I have (the original researchers), an analysis of the quotes in this thread eveals nothing conclusive. If you have ever heard a Northerner (or especially someone from the Midlands) say ‘what cheer’ and also heard someone say ‘Wotcher!’ and you know the pronunciation of those areas you’ will be dubious about to the connection too. As was the only other British English speaker in this thread (that I’m aware of)…

Basically, it comes down to: this is the etymology of language. It has few facts. Admit so and don’t disparage people for having alternative theories - especially when they admit yours as persuasive. The original question was answered long ago.

[seosamh]

At the risk of being mauled, may I say that when a geezer walks into a boozer, you do not need to ask him what he’s doing. In fact, Londoners (and I have lived among them for these past 45 years as if one myself) generally could not give a monkey’s what their mate is doing. He is having a drink. Therefore, I do not buy that particular derivation.

I will also add that the greeting, from wherever it might derive, is often rendered as “Wotcher cock”. And it is somewhat unlikely that the greeter is seeking information about the wellbeing of the greeted bloke’s member.

[Axel]

I will also add that the greeting, from wherever it might derive, is often rendered as “Wotcher cock”. And it is somewhat unlikely that the greeter is seeking information about the wellbeing of the greeted bloke’s member.

Yeah - that applies to both possible derivations. The etymology of ‘cock’ could make for some good time-wasting research!

[casdave]

Although “ ’er indoors ” does genuinely appear to have originated with Arfur Daley

Not true, this turn of phrase was used long before that particular tv series, I remember it used in ‘The Sweeney’ back in the 1970’s, and I have no doubt that this phrase is somewhat older, in fact, the character Alf Garnett used it in the 1960’s in ‘Till death do us part’

[Blake]

@casdave

Not true, this turn of phrase was used long before that particular tv series, I remember it used in ‘The Sweeney’ back in the 1970’s, and I have no doubt that this phrase is somewhat older, in fact, the character Alf Garnett used it in the 1960’s in ‘Till death do us part’

In that case you should contact the OED or BBC with your references. You could even get your name on TV. The BBC itself has been searching for the origin of that phrase, with the help of the OED, and have been unable to find pre-Minder references. You’d think they would have searched theoir own transcripts, but maybe they missed the obvious.

So, this being GQ, produce your references for these claims here, and then e-mail them to wordhunt@bbc.co.uk. BBC will confirm them and forward them to OED. Or you can contact the OED directly of course.

At this stage I;m betting that your memory is less than totally reliable. I know mine is.