As in “You have 24 hours to leave Ireland”, the knee-cappings, etc, etc. It’s called eliminating the competition, except the IRA take a more literal approach to most.
But perhaps we shouldn’t forget protection racketeering… ooops ‘Security’, another favourite pastime of your friendly neighbourhood psychopaths masquerading as genuine Republicans.
Republicanism isn’t a ‘cause’ to these people its a career choice.
Ladies and gentlemen, This man does not speak for me.
Volunteer Oglaigh32 (my left one, BTW), if you are blinkered enough not to realise that the only way our day will come is by ballot, not by the gun, I’m very sorry for you.
And I’m probably more nationalist than you. I would love to see a united Ireland. But I’m also a pacifist, and someone who can see the reality that we probably will never see a united Ireland.
But I’d rather see an end to the killing before an end to the UK.
You’re no more a volunteer than I am a troll.
Agus, an bhfuil tusa abalta a chaint as Ghailge? Cheapaim go raibh tusa gach chaint, da rira.
In response to Gary:
You said:
Again, this is just empty rhetoric. If you really want to debate the issue, you might want to drop the use of “Mother England” and other such phrases.
So you want a debate and you want to place a pre-requisete on which words I can use? Fair enough, if I can do the same to you, I will NOT accept one law for you and one for me.
You said:
Obviously incorrect. America’s police forces walk around their “settled” lands, armed to the teeth. The settlers also have a huge standing military force there too, the worlds most sophisticated army. Bloody settlers, eh, most of them have hardly been there for 3 generations.
Ohhh, you are talking about the REAL Americans, I thought you were talking about economic migrants, I agree fully with you about the slaughter of the innocent, no arguement there, you are 100% correct.
You said:
An excellent plan, and surely the only way forward from this mess. How do you reconcile that with your suggestion for armed uprisings and further violence?
Which thread was that in?
You said:
The vast majority of mainland UK doesn’t want to retain control of Northern Ireland.
Goodbye so, lets have what the majority want:
You said:
The majority of people there don’t want to be part of Ireland. Or do you not view these people as having the same right to representation as you?
Majority of what? The state is artifical, set up and maintained by armed force, look at the map and see how Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan were cut away from their natural hinterland because there were too many Catholics there. I would NOT like them to have the same representation as me, I would not like to see their elected representatives barred off the T.V. for 20 years because they support armed struggle whilst leading gunmen and Bombers from around the globe ( mostly armed and trained by Britain and America ) were hosted by the same people who barred my elected representatives from speaking, what a joke:
You said:
And by the way, the 1922 committee is a Tory party organisation, who therefore have had very little say in things over the last four years. Do try to stay abreast of things.
Oh God, don’t tell me that you think that Politicans and not a number of billionaires and Civil servants run the shop, trust me, at times the Politicans are as good as an ashtray on a motorbike when it comes to their REAL ability to work outside the constraints of their real controllers. Ever hear of political donations to party’s? Bet they are never paid back!!
You said:
To be honest, you’re showing up the flaws in your own argueument. Labour doesn’t need the Unionist vote. It doesn’t gain Britain anything in terms of wealth or power.
Goodbye so, go away and leave us be, you’ve said Labour don’t need the Unionists and that the majority don’t want to be there, so go, let democracy have it’s day:
You said:
(butcher apron…wtf? someone help me with this one, I don’t get it)
Butchers Apron = Union Jack, simple really:
You said:
Actually, it’s quite common for dealers to attack other dealers. Again, do try not to make arguments that fall over themselves. You say that if the IRA were involved they’d stamp out the opposition. Then you point out how often they, well, stamp out dealers.
There have been over 40 senior drug-dealers killed by the IRA in Ireland in the last three years, I think it should be 40 a day but people within the IRA argue that they should’nt do what is essentially the work of those who are paid by the tax payers to police the streets, whilst the police have large numbers of their people monitoring Republicans who have been on ceasefire for seven years they turn a blind eye to the scum who are tearing our society apart. There is only one answer for the scum involved in the drug trade, on that I give NO quarter.
A cynical person might suggest that they were trying to eliminate any competition. Anyway, I’m just preparing a list of other sources linking the IRA fundraising with drugs, I’ll get back to you as soon as work allows.
Please do, lets see some EVIDENCE, not something that " Dave heard down the pub " or more bull from " Sources, linking what they call " KNOWN " Republicans to this that and the other. Just ask yourself one question on this, wouldn’t it be of benifit to our opposition to plaster all over the papers PROOF of Republican involvement in the Death trade?
Something must be seriously wrong in the World when we have Drug-lords like Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness being wined and dined in Downing Street and at the White House:
No, but he has a point! The majority of people in England want nothing to do with NI, so let’s just “give it back”! How simple!
How ridiculous.
Do the wishes of the people who actually live in NI mean nothing at all? Obviously not to you. Obviously to you the only ones that count are the ones who have been living there for at least 400 years.
And I’d like to ask you a question now - you are a mother living in Armagh. One of your children has just been killed and another maimed because some coward planted a bomb in the local market. How do you feel?
pan
And once again, my apologies to all for the length of this post
By all means, please feel free to correct me when I start using rhetorical cliches.
But you do agree that they’re entitled to the same representation as you. If so, do you agree to comply with any ballot that’s held on the issue. As for your point about Donegal, Cavan and Hinterland would it make it fairer if we declared them to be part of Northern Ireland? I thought you wanted the return of Northern Ireland, not to expand it. Let us know which it’s to be. It’s hard to follow an argument of “you stole our land, but not quite enough of it to be fair”
If you really want to debate political conspiracy theories, it’s probably the subject of another thread. I’d be interested in knowing what motives this sinister cabal of businessmen and bureaucrats have. You see, I’m still waiting for you to give one motive for anyone in this affair, other than the ones we’ve offered- that it’s a great complicated muddle in which the competing desires of a number of people have to somehow be balanced.
See points passim about empty, vitriolic political rhetoric.
Ah, so now the scum are drug dealers as well as the english. Are you sure that Mother England hasn’t just hung on to Northern Ireland to give her a captive market for her drug traffickers. They’re all in it together, aren’t they. Not to mention all those biased news people - the Irish Times, Time magazine, the Centre for strategic and international
studies - they’re all in it, along with those billonaires and bureaucrats. Couldn’t just be the case that a bunch of scum like those responsible for Omagh could also be drug dealers, eh? I mean, there’s no way that a noble terrorist could ever resort to such filthy behaviour as making money from drugs, is there.
The sad thing is that, like Twisty I’d like to see Northern Ireland return to Ireland proper. But arguments like yours make me wonder why.
I have no particular bias towards any one solution to the Northern Ireland problem. As far as I’m concerned, you can hand it over to Outer Mongolia, if that will stop the violence.
But, for those who would like to see a united Ireland: the only way this is going to happen is if the majority in Northern Ireland want it. And the only realistic way to achieve this is to persuade a majority of the Loyalist population that they have nothing to lose (and peace to gain) by it - that their fear and hatred of their neighbours is unfounded, that their rights and beliefs will be respected. So, is the attitude shown by the OP going to a) help or b) hinder that process of persuasion?
In response to Gary:
You said:
As for your point about Donegal,Cavan and Hinterland would it make it fairer if we declared them to be part of Northern
Ireland? I thought you wanted the return of Northern Ireland, not to expand it. Let us know which it’s to be. It’s hard to follow an argument of “you stole our land, but not quite enough of it to be fair”
With respect Gary, what you say above just say’s it all for me. The six county state was SPECIFICALLY set up on a sectarian basis so that the majority within that area would be of the Protestant / Unionist viewpoint, I wish to F*ck they had taken Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan and then we would not have the problem of the British government involvement in the six north eastern counties of Ireland as the majority within that area would be in favour of a united Ireland.
Lots and lots of good points on this issue being made by some of you, quite a lot rubbish too and I only wish I had time to respond to all of the points raised. Sorry to those of you who feel that I’ve come along and spoiled your little tea party but a bit of honest debate won’t do any of us great harm, perhaps we all may even learn something.
If the Six counties is British why are the British Government willing to disscuss the future of the Police, Army etc, with " Drug Barons " and how the hell is one of the leaders of that Cartel allowed to be the Minister for Education? Something is wrong…
Once again, you display the shakiest grasp of how to interpret the usual measures of public opinion, such as election results or opinion polls. A majority of the populations of both Scotland and Wales remain committed to the continuing existance of the United Kingdom as a political entity. Much the same as in Northern Ireland in fact. ‘Empire’ has nothing to do with it.
As a Scot, I find your cavalier treatment of these basic facts grossly offensive. If I’m going to be accused of supporting a brutal colonial regime which continues to oppress the good people of Northern Ireland, I certainly don’t want to called ‘English’.
Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams, to name but two, have strong links to the Republican terrorists (McGuinness has admitted being a member of the IRA). That is why they are involved with the peace process; because they have influence with some of the terrorists who must be persuaded to lay down their arms if the peace process is to go forward. No matter how personally objectionable others might find them, we have to swallow those objections and deal with them.
Let me turn that question around. If the British government is not committed to finding a peaceful resolution to the Northern Ireland problem, then why are they involving representatives of extreme Republican groups at the very highest level of negotiations?
Well, but aren’t most of the Unionists decended from Scottish settlers rather than English ones? I agree with you that Northern Ireland and the rest of Ireland should be united, but merely saying “Nationalists good, Unionists bad” isn’t the best way for that to occur, and that the majority of people on both sides want to live in peace. Personally, I’m friends with both a former Captain of the Coldstream Guard who had been stationed there, and a member of the SDLP from Ulster, neither of whom have much use for any of the violence. BTW, that captain spent a lot of his time protecting catholic neighborhoods from Unionist mobs (and spent his entire time there terrified of the whole situation)…so I think it’s very simplistic to say that British troops are just the willing stooges of the Unionists.
In response to Captain Amazing:
You said:
I agree with you that Northern Ireland and the rest of Ireland should be united, but merely saying “Nationalists good, Unionists bad” isn’t the best way for that to occur,
I have CLEARLY stated that all sides have inflicted and all sides have suffered and I repeat and stand over that:
You said:
Personally, I’m friends with both a former Captain of the Coldstream Guard who had been stationed there, and a member of the SDLP from Ulster, neither of whom have much use for any of the violence.
Whatever about the SDLP member let me just say that your Captain friend who doesn’t have much use for voilence perhaps made a slight misjudgement in career choice in joining the British army, although, to be fair to Her/Him to rise to the rank of Captain She/He must have stomached a lot of stuff that went against the grain.
You said:
BTW, that captain spent a lot of his time protecting catholic neighborhoods from Unionist mobs (and spent his entire time there terrified of the whole situation)…so I think it’s very simplistic to say that British troops are just the willing stooges of the Unionists.
I again state that if the British army and RUC were removed the IRA would have the capacity to defend all but isolated Nationalist areas. How many loyalists would venture into the Bogside or the Falls with the knowledge that they hadn’t got the back up of the crown forces and the possibility that the IRA were operating on the ground? Not many.
I repeat that the ONLY way forward is through talks, not cosmetic gestures. Real change is needed. The RUC must go and be replaced by a police force that is not at the beck and call of ANY political party and must also be civil police not political tools.
Wonder why they didn’t fire Plastic bullets in the recent riots in England?? Hmmmm
Probably because there is no long-established history of firearms being used against the police during riots in England.
In response to Steve:
You said:
Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams, to name but two, have strong links to the Republican terrorists (McGuinness has admitted being a member of the IRA). That is why they are involved with the peace process; because they have influence with some of the terrorists who must be persuaded to lay down their arms if the peace process is to go
forward. No matter how personally objectionable others might find them, we have to swallow those objections and deal with them.
And in the same manner and use of words we see that Tony Blair is one of the people who directs the operations of terror gangs like the SAS and to put a halt to their criminal activities we allow Blair to come along and explain himself, it hurts us to have to face these gangsters across the table knowing what they have done but if it’s for the better of the people, begorra, we’ll fecking do it!!
Seriously though Steve, Martin Mcgiunness and Gerry Adams both toped the poll and increased their majorities at the last election and THAT is part of the reason why they are there. If the British Government is so concerned about the wishes of it’s people and willing to pump billions into the occupied six counties to defend her majesty’s subjects why dont they go the extra mile and throw a few quid into creating jobs north of Birmingham?
Let me turn that question around. If the British government is not committed to finding a peaceful resolution to the Northern Ireland problem, then why are they involving
representatives of extreme Republican groups at the very highest level of negotiations?
Republicans are there on the basis of their electoral support and as Sinn Fein is the largest nationalist party they represent the views and wishes of our people at those talks, the harsh reality of life is that war got us to the table, war is terrible, war is wrong, make no mistake about that but the things and people who/that make war necessary are a lot worse. Take a look at the British involvement in the military trade and some of the countries which they have supplied weaponary to prop up and tell me about democracy again…Pol Pot, Indonisia, feck it’s a long long list and did I mention that Britain supplied FREE nerve and Mustard gas to the Iraqi’s when they were flavour of the month because they were fighting Iran only for that same gear to be used against the Kurds AND the British army. Shhhhh, better not mention things like that:
But you claimed that the British government is not concerned with the democratic wishes of the people. Please make your mind up.
I think I’m going to ask you for a cite for that one.
A simple question: do you or do you not hate British people? Similarly, do you or do you not hate English people?
If not, I want to know why you support violence against us. The problems in Northern Ireland rest around two paramilitaries who will not let go. Both sides are equally to blame. The British people and the government that represents them are trying to find a solution that both sides will be happy with. Saying that the British are “occupying” NI is by now horribly disingeneous at best. People that have lived there for hundreds of years are not occupying forces.
pan
ps as an aside, you can quote somebody by putting [quote] [/quote] around what you want to quote. This splits up the text and makes it much easier to read.
In response to Kabbes:
QUOTE:
A simple question: do you or do you not hate British people?
No
QUOTE:
Similarly, do you or do you not hate English people?
Again, NO
QUOTE:
If not, I want to know why you support violence against us. The problems in Northern Ireland rest around two paramilitaries who will not let go.
And the 30,000 members of the crown forces just happen to be sitting on the sidelines shaking their heads and wondering why these Prod and Fenian Paddies just don’t get along!
QUOTE:
Both sides are equally to blame. The British people and the government that represents them are trying to find a solution that both sides will be happy with.
There is no simple solution and ALL side must share the blame, those who acted and those who are guilty by their in-action. ALL previous cosmetic gestures by the British have failed miserably and as for them defending the British subjects I note that when the Chinese order Chris Patten to take a walk it was one deal that they were NEVER going to mess with, sometimes the bulldog just has to draw it’s teeth back, I think they shouldn’t have taken any messing from China and sent out the fleet, rule Britania and all that jazz, sure if it wasn’t for Vera Lynn we’d all be speaking German now!!
QUOTE:
Saying that the British are “occupying” NI is by now horribly disingeneous at best. People that have lived there for hundreds of years are not occupying forces.
Mmmm, if I steal something and pass it on to my children who pass it on to theirs is it no longer stolen property? Sure bejasus, didn’t the old fossil Maggie once say " A crime is a crime is a crime…
Incidentally, if you hit the “Quote” button at the bottom of this (or any) post, you’ll see what kabbes meant when he talked about [quote] and [/quote].
This doesn’t answer the question: why do you support violence against us? And no, the 30,000 members of the crown forces are not in any way - purpose, motivation or accountability - equivalent to paramilitary forces. Or do you seriously believe that were the British government unsatisfied by the result or progress of the peace process it would order car bombings and drive-by shootings?
That’s right. The British are to blame for not bowing to terrorism earlier on, thus forcing the terrorists to continue bombing. I’d be interested to know what you consider a “cosmetic” gesture, and what your opinion is of those who refuse even a “cosmetic” chance for negotiation in preference for a continued terrorist campaign? I don’t whether you’re being deliberately disingenuous when you bring up China, but for the sake of the whole “eradicating ignorance” principle you might be interested to note that:
[list=1]
[li] British subjects were never at risk, and thus required no defending, when Hong Kong was returned to China;[/li][li] China did not order Chris Patten to take a walk;[/li][li] Britain only ever held Hong Kong on a 99 year lease from China: the people of NI have voted to be citizens of Britain.[/li][li]China didn’t “mess”.[/li][/list=1]
Your analogy becomes considerably more accurate if you replace “children” with “great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandchildren”. (That’s at roughly 3 generations a century and 3 centuries since Plantation). Or you might ask, “Can my great^9 grandchildren be prosecuted for theft?” “Are they guilty of the crime I committed?” “To what extent is it accurate to refer to them as thieves?” “Is it right for the descendants of the long-dead original owners to kill my great^9 grandchildren to recover the property?”
Oglaigh
Your obfuscation, dodging selection of convenient facts, use of provocative language and conspiracy theories are exactly the mindset of the armed groups on both sides of the divide.
Without you and without them this would have been resolved a long time ago.
Reality check, NI residents as a majority do not feel safe enough to want to be part of a united Eire.
Your use of language is guarunteed to continue that attititude.
Maybe reassurances built into the Eire constition about rights would help, maybe if there were fewer accusations there would be more hope.
If you disagree with someone, name calling and accusations are hardly likely to win them over to your point of view, but it might be a justification in your mind to get the guns out to force them to change, of course they will do the same.
I swore to myself I wasn’t going to jump into this debate. Then I saw this response.
There are reasons far beyond distorted national pride and jingoistic arrogance that keep Britain in the six counties. Two that spring to mind are 1) the Brits have created a major industrial base in the north, which was one of the reasons they insisted on maintaining the region under their control after the 1921 debacle.
As a result, Britain has a major economic and military interest in remaining in the counties, since pulling out would cause a restructuring in both manufacturing/industry and perceived military readiness. Even though NATO is arguably outdated, and the SOSUS net is not nearly as vital a concern as it was even ten years ago, there is no way Britain’s military leadership or the rest of the NATO allies would support either disbanding SOSUS or restructuring it so it was based off the north coast of Britain. Since the republic has been traditionally and officially neutral, there’s not much chance of it granting NATO rights to keep the current configuration.
I am of Irish decent, but not a citizen and I have never been there. As a result, it is not my place to comment on the ongoing Nationalist/Loyalist struggle in terms of what they should do. While I personally support complete Irish independence, it would be the height of hypocrisy for me to advise others to fight and die for a cause I’m not willing to take up arms for, myself.
oglaigh32 wrote:
Gee, oglaigh, do you still carry a grudge against the descendants of Viking invaders, or Norman invaders?
Vikings out of Ireland!
On to another point:
Why do you suppose the Protestants wish to remain a part of Great Britain? Perhaps because they fear the treatment they will receive at the hands of the majority in a unified Ireland?
I know little of the Good Friday Agreement, but as a neutral observer, my proposed solution would be along these lines: create a federal system, with NI as a semi-autonomous state in a union of Irish states. Create a wall of separation between church and state (if none yet exists) in the united Ireland, to insure that the Protestants are not oppressed by the majority. The militias should be required to disarm prior to unification, but failure to disarm should not halt the reunification process. Rather, those who fail to disarm should be deemed criminals of the highest order, with the assurance of the Irish government that they will be pursued and prosecuted by the Irish state. If violence breaks out after reunion, a fully neutral peacekeeping force (read: U.N.) should be deployed.
Now, of course, that plan may be utterly unworkable unless all parties forget the past and let go of their grudges. oglaigh’s posts are not encouraging on that front.
By the way, why does the IRA resist disarmament? Do they intend to do harm to the Protestants after a hypothetical union?
(Pardon me if I have betrayed any ignorance in the above post. I am an outside observer, with only limited knowledge of the situation.)