British Occupation of Ireland

Great Debates
81
  1. NI has one of the highest rates of unemployment, lowest rates of economic growth, highest proportion of the working-age population dependent on benefits, lowest rates of inward investment, etc, etc, of any region of the UK. In short, its economy is totally knackered and it is a net gainer from UK taxes (i.e. it is subsidised by the rest of the country). In this respect it is not much different from other former industrial and maritime regions in the north of the UK (Merseyside, South Yorkshire, Clydeside, etc.) but the problems in Northern Ireland have probably been exacerbated by the fact that much of the region is dominated by armed gangs, which doesn’t make is an attractive investment prospect for, say, your average high tech manufacturing firm.

And all that is before you begin to include the additional cost of security and policing. We could probably afford to get rid of an enntire Army division were it not for the Army’s role in Northern Ireland.

In other words, Northern Ireland is about as essential to the UK economy as the former coalfield areas and there would be a distinct economic advantage in getting rid of it. Conversely, there would be a distinct economic disadvantage to the Repblic of Ireland in taking it on board.

  1. I can’t claim to know a great deal about NATO’s submarine defences, but this obscure argument sounds like grasping at straws to me. Surely monitoring the Russian submarine fleet is no longer such a high priority for the UK that it alone justifies hanging on to Northern Ireland? Especially given the drain which Northern Ireland places on the UK’s national resources. Apart from anything else, getting rid of Northern Ireland would free up a large part of the UK’s defence budget to be spent on projects which would be of more use to NATO than policing council estates.

I have often heard arguments from Americans (and only ever from Americans) to the effect that there is some hidden economic benefit to the rest of us if Northern Ireland remains in the UK, and I can only assume that it is advanced to support a rather simplistic view of the “British presence” in NI as a case of straightforward imperialism. AS I have pointed out above, the assertion that NI brings any economic benefit to the UK as a whole is nonsense on stilts.

I think the posters, almost all of them British, who have said that the average British person couldn’t give a toss about Northern Ireland are exactly right, and I think that is part of the problem. Peace in Northern Ireland would not be worth many votes to either of the main parties in the UK Parliament compared with, say, a reduction in petrol prices or NHS waiting lists.

82

Quick question-wasn’t the IRA originally a simple, political group that just wanted a separate Ireland, before it evolved into the terrorist regime it is today?
(I’m thinking of back in the days of Pearse and Valera and Collins…)

83

As far as military infrastructure is concerned and facilities for maintaining it such as dockyards, factories etc NI is not particularly strategic at all.

The Royal Navy has not maintained any meaningful presence since HMS Maidstone was scrapped over twenty years ago.

The RAF has either closed all its bases, or transferred them to the Army flying corps, or they have become civilian airports.
One is now a prison, one is a caravan park, one is a conservation area and the only other one left that actually flies military aircraft is in fact a rescue helicopter station.Hardly an massive strategic presence there.

As for the Army, well they would not be there in anything like the numbers they are now were it not for the violence and this is a much reduced number from its peak.

The need for NI as a military post is not significant given satellite communications, in-flight refuelling, and no real military threat is likely to emanate from there nor is it likely to be a staging post for any other power to use for further operations against the UK.

In military terms we do not need NI.

Who do you think controls the undersea net that monitors the North Atlantic, yup the good old US of A not the British and I have not heard of any base in NI that actually is part of the monitoring stations.

The language used is interesting,

It is not British controlled, it is British, NI is inhabited by Britons who hold British passports.

It is like me saying the Irish controlled region of Eire.

As yet these are two differant countries, pure and simple and the one has no claim upon the other much as some would like to think.

NI is not occupied, it is inhabited by Britons some of whom wish to leave and a majority of whom do not.

As a foreign power Eire cannot make claim to the citizens of another nation against their will and all the language niceties in the world will not change that.

It is not in the interests of any of the murderous groups to have industry doing well in NI since unemployment is a fertile breeding ground for discontent the result is that NI is heavily subsidised by the rest of the UK, and its a burden that Eire would have difficulty in carrying.

84

[nitpick] Britain owned Hong Kong island in perpetuity. I completely forget under what circumstances Britain held Kowloon, the portion of the mainland directly across from Hong Kong island. The 99-year lease was held on the New Territories, the mainland hinterland of Hong Kong, and the lease expired in 1997.

The reason Britain transferred Hong Kong island (and possibly Kowloon) to the Chinese in '97 was that the New Territories were vital to the continued viability of HK. Primarily, it was Hong Kong’s source of water. China leveraged this fact against Britain - without water, Hong Kong could not continue (it is much too big for desalination plants or other options), and the Chinese made it clear that they weren’t going to provide water to HK after '97, unless Britain turned the colony over.[/nitpick]

Sua

85

Quick note re the drugs issue… the Provos are involved in the drug market the same way they are involved in the taxicab market, the pub market, the takeaway market, and the market of any business (legitimate or otherwise) operating in their strongholds. It’s called the “republican tax” and it’s more accurately described as extortion than as actual involvement in the drug trade - and most close observers of Northern politics agree with this. To quote from one of the articles Steve references above, “there remains considerable evidence to suggest that it is unlikely the PIRA is involved in direct drug trading”.

I’m not making a moral judgement here, note. Just trying to keep the facts straight.

Guinastasia, the IRA were formed in the late 19-teens, out of the ashes of the Irish Volunteers, and were meant to represent the standing army of the Irish Republic (which didn’t actually even exist at that time). It’s not really possible to do their history justice here - Tim Pat Coogan’s book The IRA is a must-read if you’re really interested in the subject.

86

This argument is a non-starter for the simple reason that any act of government that gave NI independence or to the Irish could include a codicil that the British/NATO/US military may continue to operate the line from the NI end with a reasonable outpost.

If the US can maintain a military base on Cuban soil, surely a building with some sonar techs on the coast won’t cause a fuss to anyone.

87

Just a little historical note:

The majority of Ulster Unionists are not English, nor are they the descendents of Englishmen. They are for the most part descended from Scottish peasants, who, fleeing poverty, starvation and religious discrimination in Scotland, and encouraged by William of Orange, who, in an attempt to decrease political unrest in Ulster, encouraged colonization. When they got to Ulster, they became mainly craftsmen and small farmers, rebutting the other assertion that the Unionists are descendents of large planters. In fact, large tenant farms were never common in Ulster, it having been the most urban of the provences. A second wave of Scottish immigrants came over during the industrial revolution to work in the factories. So, rather than being descended from English planters, the Unionists tend to be descended from Scottish freeholder farmers and factory workers.

88

I " Really " will try to give this list some time when I get off work.

In response to TwistofFate:

An gceapann tu gur Eireannach nios fearr na mise
tu,agus tu ag labhairt Gaeilge. No an bhfuil tu ag
deanamh iarracht chuir isteach orm os comhair na
Brits? Mas ea, theip ort.

Get real, you are NOT impressing anyone.

89

No, I’m not taking the side of the Brits, thank you very much. I’m taking the side of rationality.

And neither did I fail.
Its this simple. You came here looking for debate, which you got, but you conveniently ignore anything anyone else says that proves you wrong.

Here’s a few basic facts.

  1. Unionism will never be removed from the North.

  2. Republicanism will never be removed from the North.

You actually believe that killing people will solve 400 years of unrest? And dont say that you don’t condone violence, when you register with the name “Oglaigh32” (which, for those of you who don’t know, comes from Oglaigh na hEireann “Young Irish/Youth of Ireland”, from which the IRA recruit. )

Can I ask you something? How do you stand on the 32 Party Soveregnty Committee?

90

In response to TwistofFate:

You asked:

Can I ask you something? How do you stand on the 32 Party Soveregnty Committee?
I DO NOT, in any way make or form support these people, can I be any clearer? I would like to see a United Ireland and part of that Uniting of Ireland involves uniting the people, I do NOT want the Unionist people to go away, they are part of what this Island is, we need them, their culture, their music and all that is Unionism in Ireland.

What we don’t need is domination by ANY side, perhaps removing the churches from the schools would be a good move, I’d like to see it. Integrated schools and a deliberate policy on Housing that forces us into having mixed ( On religous grounds ) estates where no-one can dominate. The elimination of monuments of employment discrimination like the Shipyards, the electricity service and Shorts. Employment on the basis of ability and not on the basis of which Orange lodge or Gaelic club you belong to. A police service that is representitive of all sections of society.

Some people mentioned that the withdrawal of British troops would end up with a bloodbath, fear not for the Nationalist people for if the Loyalists had the ability to dominate in the manner in which some people think they could they would never have had to bring in the troops to support the weary B Specials when the people of this town ran them into the ground in the battle of the Bogside without firing a single shot.

People like Billy Hutchinson and David Ervine who once engaged in UVF activities are now sitting around the table with people who engaged in IRA activities and THAT is the way forward. I offer the Unionist people religious and civil liberties and demand the same in return, I also offer them the rights to express their culture and identity on condition that they take into consideration the feelings of the people in areas in which these activities take place and I also place the same conditions on Republicans.

The way forward is through peace, the past must be left behind by ALL, some of us ( Myself included ) are struggling with the past but we too are victims as well as inflictors. Time and understanding will help us along that Road, I will have to shortly have to sit across the table from people who I know to have been involved in attempts to kill me and the actual killing of my friends and they too will look across the table and see the same vision, we have a choice, we can go back to war or we can sit down and arrange how best to find a future together, we all have baggage and we all need to accommodate each other.

Unlike outsiders ( Not a stab at anyone, just a physical fact ) I don’t have a choice, I was born into a divided society with gunmen and Women on the streets from day one, that is all we have ever known, it will take time and I urge everyone on the Republican side to be patient, avoid conflict, ignore provocation, and most importantly, lets keep the peace, we must NEVER go back to war, too much has been invested in this in terms of lives and damage to property. Lets build, lets go forward to a new Island, a new Ireland where all are equal and not like the past where some were more equal than others.

To the British Government I say, take this opportunity by the scruff of the neck and work it to your last drop of energy, this is not a time for treating Ireland as a political football, this may be the last chance for us all.

91

I have never understood how anyone with a constructive agenda in relation to trying to find an acceptable compromise, would find it helpful to insist on a context that includes 400 years of selective history – that’s even before the Mayflower sailed to the New World for God’s sake !

You, Volunteer, aren’t interested in resolution because you have your own pathetic needs to satisfy which, themselves, have everything to do with your ‘status’ and nothing to do with democracy or negotiation.

Again, a small man – just looking to justify confrontation for his own ends.

92

A good sentiment - I wish you every luck

Absolutely true, but equally applicable to the other players, unionist and republican.

93

Fair sentiment Oglaigh, but you have to admit that you started this debate on a “Tiocfadh Ar Lá” bint, (what with the “Volunteer” bit and all. )
Don’t take it personally. Im just sick to my gollabh with “violence= problem, violence= solution” attitude that people seem to get.

If I came across a little touchy, nay worry, ignorance does that to me.
Could be worse. At least your not this person. My God, we could have a field day.

94

Oglaigh

The idea of a united Ireland is a historical figment of the imagination and as such there is no reason why it should be joined unless one wants a tidy geographical feature.

If you look here you can see the maps of Ireland for yourself.

So since there has never been an entity of the entire island of Ireland as one nation, except when in possession of Great Britain, please explain what historical justification there is for actually forcing it together.

Please note I would think that a united Ireland would be a good economic unit and would be a plus to the world but this alone is not enough to satisfy the Unionists.
Since so much of the dispute is a wrangle over historical issues I would like to see some justification along those lines.
Guilt is not a good justification but feel free to use it as you see fit.

95

Wouldn’t a justification for a united Ireland be that, while it was never completely politically unified, the island shares a common history and common culture? Germany until 1870, for example, never was politically unified but that doesn’t mean the unification was illegitimate.

96

Yes and no. The common history and culture argument has some merit but it was also used to justify the Anschluss and the occupation of the Sudetenland and Alsace-Lorraine, for example. (I’m not intending to make any implicit Nazi comparisons here, I’m just trying to demonstrate that common culture does not always justify a unitary state)

Also, does Northern Ireland have more of a common history and culture with the Republic of Ireland or with the UK? I would tend towards the former view, personally, but a lot of Unionists would tell you that they have more in common, culturally, with Britain than with the rest of Ireland. Whether very many Britons would agree is another question.

I can’t see that any consideration other than the wishes of the resident population of Northern Ireland could be sufficiently great to outweigh those wishes – though I’m genuinely open to persuasion if anybody wants to argue that they could. I realise that the population of NI is deeply divided on this issue and that “the will of the people” if it has any clear meaning in this context is exceptionally difficult to determine, but in democratic countries we usually take the will of the majority as being the closest available proxy for the will of the whole. So as long as a majority of the people of NI want to remain in the UK, I think it would be very difficult to hand it over to the Republic.

97

Oglaigh:

Again with the assertion that the Unionists will just dry up and blow away once reunification hits. Sure, they won’t be able to operate openly. But how are you going to feel once the bombings start in Irish pubs rather than British pubs? It is a hell of a lot easier to set bombs than it is to prevent bombs from being set.

So once your lot goes from the bomb setters to the bomb preventers, don’t you think that’s going to be a bit trickier? I see that you’ve changed your tune since every single person who posted here called you on it. Good for you. But how can you believe that the Unionists would simply melt away if the the British handed the north over to the Republic?

98

Just to add a bit of context:

Last night, a few minutes before midnight, the “Real” IRA exploded a carbomb just outside a busy pub in West London. Fortunately the DJ running the kareoke in the pub had decided unusually to have an extra song, otherwise considerable numbers (estimated 200 people) would have been outside the pub and would probably have been killed. As it was, the damage was limited to 7 injuries.

The police have said that details given to them by the terrorists were intentionally misleading, thus preventing them making the area safe.

I’ve been told before by some Americans (oldscratch springs to mind) that the IRA only ever target military establishments. The IRA have always been well funded from the US via naive 4th generation Irish immigrants who think that the organisation is purely military and who ignorantly support “the cause”. I’d like to take this opportunity and use last night’s bomb to emphasise that this is not the case and ask these people how they’d feel if they found out that Tim McVeigh belonged to an organisation that was receiving funding from English people.

pan

99

The Real IRA does not equal the IRA.

From here

Also read BBC News | NORTHERN IRELAND | Who are the Real IRA?

These are people who are intent on destroying the GFA by any means possible.

I remember when the GFA agreement was being debated before the referendum. On one NI tv program you could see Loyalist politicians saying that the document was going to destroy the Union and on another news program you could see Nationalists saying the document was going to solidify the Union and forever end the chance of a united Ireland. :rolleyes: :frowning: I have to say that I sadly agree with ruadh

There is so much distrust and hatred that I can’t see how the two communities can ever agree to live together peacefully.

I’m Irish and have had nationalistic leanings for most of my life. I understand why Catholics felt like they had nobody on their side during the devolution days and how the IRA gained so much support. There where civil rights violations happening all the time in NI at that time and it was a breeding ground for very politically motivated terrorists. However the times have changed significantly. Now the future of NI is in the hands of the people of NI and that is the way it should be.

I remember the sorrow I felt on seeing the pictures from Omagh. There was a universal feeling od ENOUGH IS ENOUGH after the bombing and I really hoped that some good was going to come from that horrendous act. Unfortunately people have short memories and it seems to me that the Loyalists and Nationalist politicians are still playing their little power games while people are still living in fear.

Do we really need another Omagh for movement?

GOD I HOPE NOT.

100

Least I be either mis-understood or mis-quoted let me say that the Bomb in London last night was wrong and does nothing to further the cause of Irish freedom.

I repeat…The bomb in London was wrong.

Can I now have any of you step forward and say something about the voilence visited upon the Irish / Nationalist / Catholic people of the six counties by the British and their allies in recent times?