British pronunciation of "foreign" words

Factual Questions
81

Hmm, “Fillet” is an English word, derived from “filet” - a French word.
So, presumably, you pronounce “Mutton” as “Mouton” in the US, or “Beef” as “Bouf” since you don’t “mangle foreign words” (or speak with accents :rolleyes: )
The French have “Rosbif” (sp?) from “Roast beef” in return.

And what the Japanese do to an English word when they incorporate it into their language is just mind-blowing :smiley:
Japlish
(The “Blues” is “Buruusu” and Brad Pitt has his own word “Burapi” :eek: )

And we also say:- ““Jeesus”- I love being told how we speak, (or that we drink warm beer or whatever), by people who couldn’t point to the UK on a map!”

Rather than:- ““Hay-Sous” - I love being told how we speak, (or that we drink warm beer or whatever), by people who couldn’t point to the UK on a map!”
:smack:
(only kidding, I’m sure I stereotype 'merkins just as much as I get stereotyped - it’s all part of the rich tapestry that is the internet, or “inner-net” as you pronounce it :smiley: )

82

So is the boeuf, er, beef here that in British English a French word has been taken and its spelling anglicised and its pronunciation anglicised and that is wrong because Americans don’t say it that way.

But when Americans write about the theater (sic) and talk about the theader, that’s fine?

There is no right and wrong. It is all tradition and language evolution.

83

The capital of Vermont is Montpelier, pronounced (as God intended) Mont-PEEL-yer.

Reminds me of the old joke: How do you pronounce the capital of Kentucky: LOO-ee-ville or LOO-ah-ville?

84

Answer: Frankfurt.

85

Except I misspelled it (D’oh!) and for once the SDMB server was too fast: Frankfort

86

You misunderstood, I’m a Brit myself :slight_smile:

87

I used to work in John Menzies and we always pronounced it men-zees … although I did hear one woman call the place ming-is once

88

If your talking about cities, I would say

Wooster and Redding

It’s hard for me do do an unambiguous phonetic spelling of Worcester. The first syllable I would say wuss (rhyming with puss as in pussy-cat)

I should probably rephrase my original post.

One day, someone brought a taco to the attention of an English speaker or speakers. He displayed the item and said

Thees eez a tah-co, spelled T-A-C-O.

Now is someone going to defend the idea that someone walked away from that meeting saying

“Okay, T-A-C-O tack-o” ?

No way. So how did this word morph?

89

You can throw all these old historically lost mispronunciations.

It wasn’t my intention to open up the entire dictionary.

I’m speaking of words that have come into common use in the recent past. With the media everywhere, I maintain there’s no real good reason to start mispronouncing a name when the sounds are perfectly valid in your native tongue and the spellings are reasonable.

And as for Jaguar motor vehicles, the jaguar animal was around long before the company and was never pronounced jag-you-er.

I leave you all with a quote from a certain Mel Brooks movie.
“It’s pronounced FRONKENSTEEN”

90

Or, as there are few Spanish people in the UK, when tacos first appeared in the UK, person picks up item from supermarket shelf that says “Taco” on the packaging, and makes a reaonably intelligent guess as to how to pronounce it.

Let’s have a third attempt at getting an answer to: what about Note-uh Dayme?

One day someone brought the French cathedral up as a possible name for a college. He displayed a picture and said

This iss Not-ruh Dam (with a slight rolling of the r), spelled N-O-T-R-E D-A-M-E.

Now is someone going to defend the idea that someone walked away from that meeting saying

“Okay, N-O-T-R-E D-A-M-E Note-uh Dayme” ?

91

Because there is NO way in English to pronounce “notre” properly.

The “r” sounds does not exist.

It becomes laziness when the sounds are outside a languages realm.

And, after all, we still have supposedly educated people who pronounce “nuclear” as new-cue-ler.

and I have Texan friends who insist on pronouncing
“Doesn’t” as “dudn’t”

Again, all outside of the intent of my OP, but the hi-jack has been interesting.

92

What hijack, Bwana Bob?

Okay, so let’s sum up. From your original question:
“I’ve noticed many British people tend to go out of their way to pronounce certain foreign words incorrectly”

[sub]Bollocks: the British people in question are merely speaking their own particular form of English.[/sub]

"For example, the words “pasta” and “taco”.

These are Italian and Spanish words respectively. (no kidding)"

[sub]No, they’re also English words (no kidding)[/sub]

"They should be pronounceed “pah-stah” and “tah - ko”.

[sub]Er… Not necessarily[/sub]

"But the Brits tend to say “pass-tah” and “tack-o”.

[sub]So bloody what?[/sub]

Even in the US where we mangle foreign words with regularity these simple words are pronounced properly.

[sub]What makes these words “simple?” The fact that you think you have a monopoly on their correct pronunciation? The fact that you live nearer to Mexico?[/sub]

“So what gives?”

[sub]Er… My question exactly[/sub]

And another thing

WRONG - I pronounce it exactly like that, and so do a lot of people I know.

Or even any of it.

What actually was the intent of your OP? To get a rise out of the Brits? I certainly 'ope you are not, ‘ow do you say,’ drooling?:wink:

93

You’ve never been to Scotland have you.

94

Ha ha, Cockney. My friends from London were bi-lingual, they spoke cockney originally, and “proper” english to get along in the business world. They could be hard to understand sometimes. Actually, they were part of a movement to preserve the dialect. That was about 30 years ago. I wonder if they were successful?

95

the line of the thread seems to be that it’s only British and Americans who mispronounce foreign words; Do the French, Spanish, Germans etc. have perfect English pronounciation?
orses fer corses… innit?

96

Skopo
So … Qwik-zit … it’s still the officially sanctioned pronunciation in British English, even if it’s not said that way much anymore.

One point to remember about the OED is context. People say the name of the character Don Quixote as “Don Kee-Hotay”, but dictionaries are talking about something different: a Quixote (an English noun for someone who behaves like him) and that’s what’s pronounced “Quick-Zote”.

97

The pronouncer at m-w pronounces it both ways.
It suprises me that english can take a proper name, and keeping the meaning, change the pronunciation that way.

98

Good point, raygirvan, and very interesting to hear that. It’s true that the OED definition is for a person who acts like Quixote. But shouldn’t that pronunciation be based on a pronunciation of the original Quixote?

Anyway, it seems to me that the English pronunciation for Cervantes’ character has been restored to a Spanish pronunciation at some point in recent history (say, in the last fifty years or so, maybe many more), while the term for the Quixote-like person still bears the anglicized pronunciation. This anglicization is also still evident in the adjective “quixotic” which in both American and British English should be pronounced “qwizotic” (not “kee-hoe-tik” or anything like that).

I suspect that the anglicized “Qwik-zit” was indeed applied to the Cervantes character in pre-20th century English, just as Don Juan was pronounced “jew-an” (I don’t think the anglicized “Juan” was restricted to Byron’s poem). I was indeed aware that nowadays, the name “Juan” is almost universally pronounced in its Spanish form like “hwahn,” unless you’re talking about Bryon’s character. From this thread, I have now learned that the Cervantes’ character is almost universally pronounced as “kee-HOE-tay,” with the “traditional” anglicized pronunciation fallen by the wayside.

I think the most important thing to take from all this is that both English (in all its forms) is a living, constantly developing language. In current usage, proper names are increasingly given their native pronunciation in both British and American English. I’m perfectly OK with that. Of course, we don’t do this with many city and place names (as I mentioned before, we anglicize “Firenze, Italia” as “Florence, Italy”). And, at least today, there’s nothing wrong with anglicizing those place names, either, so long as there’s a longstanding tradition for doing so. It’s all about convention, after all.

Another thing to take from this is that dictionary editors on both sides of the pond need to update their entries for “Quixote”! Consider this example from The American Heritage Book of English Usage:

And, before someone brings up “The Man of La Mancha” and really hijacks BwanaBob’s thread… that’s the last thing I’m going to say about “Quixote.”

99

trabi-

You’re way out of line here.

I notice you had no problem with me saying Americans mangle words every day, but when I “dare” suggest Brits do it, then somehow that’s wrong.

We’re all supposed to have at least one layer of skin.

Lighten up.

IMHO, I reject the notion that somehow when a “foreign” word is absorbed into another language, that all’s fair in the pronunciation game.

That excuse works for words generations removed.

I don’t buy the theory that taco shells miraculously appeared on supermarket shells in Britain without the word ever being mentioned, with people deciding to call it a tack-o.

Someone had to hear it, see it’s spelling, see that the spelling is not alien to English, and yet deliberately change it’s pronunciation to suit their own fancy.

That’s how I see it. I’m not saying it hasn’t happened on this side of the pond. But that wasn’t the OP.

100

What is the proper pronunciation? Mish-el-angelo? I admit to being clueless here.

“Slow”
and…uh…wild guess here… “Berkun Tweed”?

I’m not the OP, but… is “Wooster” (oo as in wood, not moon) and “red-ing” correct?