BTTF: What does 1885 Doc remember about 1955?

Cafe Society
1

Time to think fourth-dimensionally.

In Back to the Future Part III, 1885 Doc Emmett Brown says to Marty “What idiot dressed you in that outfit?” because he has no memory of the 1955 that Marty just came from.

But would he? In the three movies, there were four alternate 1955’s. The original one where Marty never went back, the first film where he goes and leaves again, the second movie where Biff goes back and gives young Biff the almanac, and lastly the one where Marty returns and fixes everything.

There are also four 1985’s. The original where no time travel happened. The first movie conclusion where Doc has now worn a bulletproof vest. The Biff 1985. And the last one when the trilogy ends.

Considering the rule that future events change when past events are altered, does this mean memories also filter through? What memories of 1955 should the final 1885 Doc have?

2

There are two Docs: A younger one and one that is 30 years older. The older one is in 1885.

When Marty goes back to 1955 to visit his parents, he alters history and thus the memory of the younger Doc as well. The original 1955 (where Marty never went back) is thus completely erased from Doc’s memory.

When older Biff goes back to 1955 to give younger Biff the Sports Almanac, older Biff never interacts with the younger Doc or Marty (who is visiting his parents and the younger Doc). Therefore, Doc never experienced that 1955 either.

Doc is in 1885 right after the Delorian is struck by lightning, right after being in the 1955 where Marty fixes everything. Therefore, the 1885 Doc remembers that 1955 as well.

In short, the 1885 Doc remembers the 1955 where Marty went back to visit his parents (from Doc’s youth), as well as the 1955 where Doc and Marty fix everything (30 years later in Doc’s life).

As far as your question about whether or not the 1885 Doc would remember asking Marty “What idiot dressed you in that outfit?”: yes, he should remember that. After all, the younger Doc, from 1955, is the one who dresses Marty, and the older Doc, in 1885, is the one who asks Marty.
Ouch. My head hurts now.

3

But maybe not. The movies demonstrated that it takes “time” (metatime?) for changes in the timeline to propagate, so the 1885 Doc may not “yet” remember his own actions on his behalf in 1955.

But this one, maybe, we can attribute to the simple fact that an old man doesn’t remember minor details from events 30 years in his past.

4

Ah, yes: Bill’s Tittie-Twister Fiasco, one of my favorite movies.

5

Yes, I am willing to accept that answer, it was what I considered to be the truth when I hadn’t really given it too much thought. But it occurred to me that with so many alternative 1955s maybe his memories would never be the 1955 we saw most recently.

I figure there’s enough details in the title for it to make up for the abbreviation.

6

Maybe I’ve got this twisted up (surprise, surprise), but it seems to me that 1885 Doc couldn’t possibly have the memories of the 1955 Doc that helped Marty go to 1885.

Otherwise, this new Doc that knew the fate of the 1885 Doc could just remember that fact when he goes back to 1885 in the future. He could prevent his own death using his new information and not send Marty back at all.

But 1885 Doc is surprised by the information about his death when Marty tells him. It’s not something he would forget, like how he dressed some kid.

Am I misremembering something?
Apart from the temporal mechanics, if he did in fact have memories from that 1955, his statement, “What idiot dressed you in that outfit?” could be more out of dismay (i.e. “What was I thinking?”) than an actual question.

7

We’re doing the best we can, but at the end of the day I’m afraid we’ve all thought this out much more carefully than Zemeckis ever did, and it’s never going to get smoothed out properly.

Specifically, the movies seem to explicitly reject the Many Worlds hypothesis, which I think is necessary if you’re going to have a workable time travel story in the first place.

8

In the novelization of Back to the Future Part III that I took to scout camp one year, this point was specifically addressed – the following exchange occurs (paraphrased from memory, of course, as I have no idea where a paperback book I read in 1991 would be):

--------- BEGIN PARAPHRASE ---------

Doc looked at Marty’s clothes. “Who dressed you in that ridiculous outfit?”

“You did, Doc!” Marty replied. “Don’t you remember?”

Now that Marty mentioned it, Doc could feel the new memories filtering into his mind. He even remembered why he had chosen this particular outfit – this was exactly the kind of thing that [some movie star whose name I can’t remember] always wore in all those B-movie westerns that Doc had watched as a kid in the 1930’s?

--------- END PARAPHRASE ---------

I’m not sure how canonical the novelization was, but at least it’s a data point.

9

Also, I don’t want to hijack the thread, but I have a similar question about the third Back to the Future film. I’ll put it in a spoiler box just in case anybody hasn’t yet seen the movie.

[spoiler]
When Marty and Doc are visiting the graveyard in 1955 at the beginning of the movie (or near the beginning, anyway), Marty runs across Doc’s grave, and they discover that he will die very soon after having sent Marty the letter instructing Marty not to come rescue him. Of course, this causes them to devise a plan for Marty to go back and save the 1885 Doc.

But one of the things on the headstone is something about “his beloved Clara.” How is that possible, since in the timeline they are in, Clayton Ravine is called “Clayton Ravine” because Clara Clayton fell into it on her way to the town, long before she could have met Doc, and of course she was killed and they named the ravine after her.

So, if she died, which she must have since Doc and Marty discuss her death at some point before sending Marty back to 1885, and the ravine is, in fact, named Clayton Ravine at that point … how could she have been Doc’s “beloved Clara” and how could she have had that phrase carved onto his headstone?[/spoiler]

I just don’t get it. Am I missing something, or is this a big error?

10

In the first 1885, Clara drove herself from the train station.

In Doc’s 1885, he was asked to pick her up, and did so. That’s how they meet.

In Doc & Marty’s 1885, Doc is preoccupied and doesn’t meet Clara at the train station, forcing her to drive herself.

Make sense?

11

I think the best explanation is that characters remember events from the timeline they’re originally from. So, Marty remembers the ravine being named after Clara because his ‘home’ timeline occurs before Doc goes back to 1885. Presumably, in the 1955 at the beginning of BTTF3, the ravine is not named after Clara. Kind of like another ‘tangent’ timeline as Doc describes in #2, but with only minor changes.

Or maybe it’s just a big fat error. :slight_smile:

12

And I thought it was called “Schoolmarm’s Canyon,” not “Clayton Ravine.”

But anyway, obviously if the schoolmarm died, Doc would have met another woman named Clara.

13

Fiver - Nope, it was Clayton Ravine. After Doc saves Clara, Marty mentions that a teacher once died in the ravine, giving it the name. After hearing her name, Doc says, “Great Scott! I’ve altered the space-time continuum!”

StG

14

Regarding Clayton/Shonash/Eastwood Ravine -

It is possible, though admittedly unsupported by evidence as far as I recall, that Clara Clayton, overcome with grief after Doc’s demise in 1885’, threw herself into the ravine.

I have a theory that might explain much of the seeming paradoxes of Back to the Future, if it weren’t for one of the main points of the first one. In the first movie, Marty interferes with the timeline, and eventually begins to fade out.

Yet in the sequels, we see numerous changes to the timeline that don’t cascade - Biff, after giving his younger self the Sports Almanac, returns to the future in which he’s a bitter old man. These sorts of things would seem to indicate that time-displaced folks act as a kind of anchor - since Marty and Doc are still in 2015, which isn’t their proper time, they’ve anchored it in place, and Biff returns there. Unfortunately, Marty’s fade-out is inconsistent with this.

My only other theory is that changes to the timeline actually take time to cascade - time measured from the perspective of the actor changing events. Thus, Marty has several days to get his parents to kiss at the Passion Under the Sea dance. Thus also, Old Biff returns to find the future unchanged from the one where he stole the DeLorean - so far. Had Marty and Doc hung around for a few days after Biff got back, they may have found things a bit different. Instead, they head back to 1985 - leaving Old Biff’s frame of reference entirely - they arrive in a 1985 where the cascading changes have already caught up.

I can only guess they’re protected from those changes by the fact of being ‘in transit’ in the time machine past the cascade point. It’s also possible that the events just aren’t stable - that the timeline exists in a flux state until the changes are ceased.

One thing that does seem consistent about the series, though, is that time-displaced individuals do not get their memories altered based on changing events. Marty doesn’t “remember” his siblings disappearing, he has to rely on the picture. Doc doesn’t remember dressing Marty in those clothes. Marty and Doc don’t remember the events that led to alternate '85, relying on Newspapers.

15

For all intents and purposes, Old Biff was supposed to have disappeared amongst the garbage cans after breaking the head off his cane. The original script supposedly had him tooling around in the DeLorean a bit more: visiting the changed 1985 then disgustedly returning to 1955 after seeing what his younger self had wrought.

16

Sounds familiar - I think there’s a deleted scene for the disappearance, on the DVD, now that you mention it.

Of course, it’s remotely possible that the 2015 Hill Valley based on the real 1985 is almost identical to the one based on Biff’s 1985’. :wink: Biff’s Gambling becomes an addiction by 2000, you see, and even without the Almanac to rely on, he keeps throwing money away…

Honestly, the only things that would need to be the same, I think, would be the general layout of the development that Marty and Doc were visiting. (Lyon Estates?) Even in 1985’ with Doc in a mental institution and Marty’s dad dead, the DeLorean still has to be invented - maybe by Doc after escaping temporarily from the institution - because without it, 1985’ can’t exist.

17

The problem with this is that there are several examples of the timeline changing immediately. At the end of BTTF, when Marty’s parents kiss, he immediately recovers and his siblings are back in the picture. All the pictures and newspapers work this way, except for the original photo during the main part of BTTF. At the end of BTTF2, when Doc has just been sent back to 1885, the western union guy drives up right away, although that can be explained by the fact that in that case, it’s Doc time travelling and not Marty.

The real explanation is that the first movie just uses time travel as the inciting incident, while 2 & 3 are time travel movies. :slight_smile:

18

I’m pretty sure it’s mentioned in the audio commentary as well. Old Biff was supposed to have faded when he returned from 1955 (the idea being that Biff was shot in 1985 by Lea Thompson’s character, after she had been pushed too far), but the filmmakers thought that explaining it was too complicated and went to the dangling “Old Biff falls out of the DeLorean and collapses” bit.

19

Thanks for all the theories about my continuity question.

Oh, and about my previous response to the question the OP asked, regarding this part of my answer above:

“Now that Marty mentioned it, Doc could feel the new memories filtering into his mind. He even remembered why he had chosen this particular outfit – this was exactly the kind of thing that [some movie star whose name I can’t remember] always wore in all those B-movie westerns that Doc had watched as a kid in the 1930’s?”

After hours of deep thought, I think the “some movie star whose name I can’t remember” may have been “Roy Rogers.” Does anybody know if that fits – was there a movie star named Roy Rogers who starred in cowboy movies in the 1930’s and/or 1920’s (I can’t remember exactly which decade Doc specified in the book, but I’m pretty sure it was

20

Might the fact that the 1885 Doc was a time traveler have had something to do with his not remembering the altered 1955?

I mean, in the first movie, after he alters the timeline, Marty returns to his home in 1985, and is surprised by his family being affluent—Marty had retained the memories from the original timeline.

So, maybe being a time-traveler somehow shields your memories from being altered by the timeline. Doc remembered to wear a bulletproof vest in the first movie because neither the 1955 Doc or the 1985 Doc had actually time-traveled themselves, yet.

My 2¢, at least.