Buffy/Angel fans: why are you hooked and I'm not?

The early series of Buffy were based on two excellent premises - 1. that this normal happy high school just happened to be situated above the gate to hell or Vampire City or whatever and 2. that this petite 16 year old girl has the mystical birthright of being able to kill them all.

Those are clever premises and the Angel concept is boring in comparison IMO.

Buffy got a bit contrived after she finished off the evil mayor and they had to move beyond the two premises and develop more characters to keep it going and got a bit over the top on self-parody.

Well, I’m more of an Angel fan than a Buffy fan. Most of what everyone else has said is true: the focus in Btvs is rarely the actual fighting, you need to understand the story that’s been built up among characters from the beginning, yadda yadda. My problem with that is:

Towards the end of the show’s run, the last season in particular, I thought that the writers were maybe getting lazy, you know, where they’ve been doing this show for so long and there’s already a rich and complex past for the characters, they (the writers) figure, “Why bother putting much effort into clear exposition and dialogue? The hard core fans get it anyway”. So the series really becomes one big “You had to be there to get it” type-thing. I didn’t watch Btvs from the beginning, so I got some stuff, and didn’t get some other stuff and didn’t really care. For what it’s worth, despite this, the dialogue was still great. At times. When it wasn’t just recycled garbage. Whedon characters have a distinct way of speaking that can get pretty tiresome.

That’s my take on Buffy. Angel, on the other hand, was the best fantasy piece to happen to network TV in like, forever. It was dark and brooding, but unafraid to tackle the absurd or make fun of itself. It’s a rare case indeed when the spinoff is better than the original. (You know I’m right!)

I can see how one might not like Angel: it falls into the same trap as Buffy; that is, soap opera style subplots between characters, but without the painfully repetive exposition of true soap operas. It’s like trying to watch Passions without having each character clumsily explaining everything that’s been going on everyday: “We have to get Theresa to sign these papers giving up the rights to her babies which she got pregnant with by drugging the real surrogate mother and substituing herself so that she could use the fetus to blackmail me into giving back her son that we took away as revenge for making me lose by baby when I was pregnant and had complications and saw her with my husband in LA…” Yeah.

And by the way, Firefly sucked.

Check out Smile Time, which will be airing in the TNT syndication schedule this Thursday, 5:00pm EDT.

Burn him! Buuuuuuurn hiiiiim!

Seriously, disagreeing on Buffy and Angel is one thing, but to say that Firefly sucked is to be out of step with the fundamental forces of goodness in the universe.

Some of us are just sick of anything to do with vampires. Honestly, there’s too many vampires in pop culture these days. What, they’re just a plot device? A metaphor? A Macguffin? I’m sick of vampires as plot devices and metaphors and Macguffins, too. No more goddamned vampires.

I got into Buffy unintentionally. I think it was the second season, and WB was running it on Mondays and Tuesdays. One Monday I watched part of it, in the middle, and I didn’t get it, and I thought it was cheesy and dumb. The next night, whatever I typically watched wasn’t on, and I was bored, so I turned to Buffy again and just let it play out. I realized, that in watching the entire episode it was quite intriguing, and I wanted to know how a situation played out. So the next week I tuned in on purpose and was hooked. And I was lucky because I got two episodes a week for some time, which fed my addiction.

Angel, I was never entirely captivated by, because I was never really all that interested in Angel as a character. But Angel has other characters that are great characters, which kept me until the end.

What did it for me are a number of things: combination of horror mixed with humor mixed with pathos; characters and their growth and evolutions; the writing the writing the writing! Some of the episodes, if you get hooked, are some of the finest moments in television. And of course because it’s all supernatural, anything can happen. The biggest drawbacks can be story arcs: typically there’s a big bad menace throughout each season that leads to a grand finale, and I can see how it might be confusing if you’re watching and don’t know who Glory is, or why Angel suddenly has a teenage son out of nowhere.

You just have to give it a chance, these shows are more complicated than something like CSI (nothing against CSI, but you don’t have to really invest your attention in that franchise to “get” an episode).

What we have here is a perfect and live example of why the two series never were hits.

Other than that, everything that can be said in defense of the shows have been said.

If they’d taken people having taste into account, Firefly wouldn’t have gone past pilot. I can’t believe they gave him a movie budget to polish his turd up further.

Firefly is among the three worst SF shows ever made for US TV; it may even be worse than Farscape (though not Galactica 1980). I watched one episode. The acting was awful, the script dull, the characters unlikeable and the direction made Manos look good. As that was supposed to be the best episode, I decided not to waste any more of my time.

Damn, man. What are your three best shows?

Babylon 5, Buffy and Stargate SG-1 (in no particular order). Dead Like Me may well bump Stargate if it can get a few more flashes of brilliance to go with its consistently being good.

I ignored Buffy and Angel when they were being aired but was impressed enough with the dialogue in the one Buffy episode I did catch late one night that I decided to give the series a try. My best friend owned the first 3 seasons of Buffy so I borrowed them and watched them with my 10 year old daughter. Then we followed with renting the rest of the seasons, right up until the finale. We became so addicted that we watched from dawn 'til dusk every day. We found that if we got up early, we could even squeeze an episode in before school in the morning. (yes, I’m a BAD Mum.)

And I tell you, watching them all in one stream of consciousness like that was great. (Then we did the same with Angel ). I agree that “Hush” was a particularly good episode. It scared the bejesus out of me, something they don’t often do.
And, yes, very few fight scenes are meant to have any tension. Slaying vampires is Buffy’s birthright, it’s usually just something that happens in the background while she’s having a conversation or, memorably, in “Once More with Feeling”, from s6, singing a Broadway number. What’s great about Buffy is the firstly the humour, the self-parody (or sometimes very low-brow humour I admit, like masturbation jokes). Secondly the characters are fascinating. The idea that an ordinary 16 (to 21) year old finds herself landed with being THE Slayer, THE Chosen One, a Messiah not given a choice about being a Messiah and the tension between fulfilling this duty and trying to be a normal person too. Then there’s her off-siders: an ugly duckling brainiac-nerd who evolves into a swan, beautiful, powerful in witchcraft, dating a guy in a band (who himself is a werewolf once a month) and therefore being a nerd no longer, then coming to terms with her homosexuality, then battling with her control over her own magic, then dealing with profound loss, rage, revenge, then being able to move on from that. The hilariously stoic werewolf/ guitarist. The ex-vengence demon with her inability to ever really “get” how to relate normally to others once she becomes mortal, and the piss-funny outrageous and inappropriate things she says and does as a result. And the poor sidekick who has no mojo of his own, who is never in the limelight, who is somehow the rock that tethers all the eccentric characters, who observes, who picks up the pieces. And of course, the vampire with a soul, fighting for a redemption for the atrocities of his past, an absolution that can never come.
Which brings me to Angel. It’s darker, and more grown-up, but still very funny in a self-satirical way at times.

One nitpick. I’m all for characters evolving but especially having watched all the series in a matter of a couple of months, it bugs me that they will sometimes make a character evolve to the point that they are in fact a TOTALLY DIFFERENT person altogether. Here I’m talking about Cordelia, the popular, cheerleader, vacuous, shallow bitch in Buffy who becomes some kind of bloody Earth-Mother/ saint by s2/3 of Angel. Or Wesley, the nerdy, weakly, pretentious, naive ponce who evolves into Lee frigging Marvin. What is it with that?

Bolding Mine. Dead Like Me?? I am appalled.

I mean, I’m no fan of Babylon Five, either, but I can see how some people might enjoy it. But I didn’t know anyone liked DLM. Wow.

Well…I guess I can live with the aberration that you hate Firefly. You redeem yourself with B5.
Ivanova - “If I’ll live through this job … without completely losing my mind, it will be a miracle of biblical proportions.”

Lt. Corwin - “Well, there goes my faith in the Almighty.” :smiley:

…which it didn’t. Well, on Fox at least.

I watched Buffy and Angel, all through their runs. Sometimes good, sometimes not. One episode stands out. It was Hush, where the “baddy of the week” was “the gentlemen”. The concept was good and creepy, “what if they get you and you can’t scream”. Sure the “martial arts” was hokey, that’s a given. Any beginner can tell you the “other guy” is never that cooperative. But, then it’s just a show. The good guy has to win, or it would be the end the show and the series. You had to watch faithfully and in sequence in order to keep everything connected.

I enjoyed Once More With Feeling too. As for the vengeance demon, did they ever explain her morbid fear of bunny rabbits? That struck me as hilarious - a creature known for flaying her victims, dismembering and skinning them, and she was terrified of rabbits. As for the bookish Wesley, all I can think of is, the writers had to make him tough, just to explain how he managed to stay alive for more than 5 minutes. Giles can still kick his ass any day though, speaking of which, it was hinted that Giles had a dark past (the ripper) in one episode, but it was never explained.

Re: Cordelia. Yes, on BtVS she was a shallow vapid bitch, but she was even there showing the occasional flashes that there was some maturing happening. One moment that comes to mind is when Buffy needs a ride somewhere in S2 because of a tragedy and Cordelia takes her no questions asked and no smart remarks, just says “of course.” The fact that Cordy stuck around for the Ascension and helped fight the Mayor at all shows her maturing. Then in AtS S1 she is given the visions. Later the same season the visions are sent out of control and she experiences untold numbers of them simultaneously, feeling the despair of hundreds or thousands of people simultaneously. This is a big grow-up call for her, which is capped very nicely when she is given in S3 the opportunity to exchange her visions–which are killing her–for the life she would have had if not for bumping into Angel in the first ep of Angel. Not only does she refuse, she sacrifices part of her humanity to allow her to retain the visions and continue in the work she feels has become her destiny. Now, S4 calls into question whether that was truly a free choice on her part, but I choose to believe that it was. She’s not the same person at 20 that she was at 16. Not too many people are, even if that haven’t had a hand in saving the world several times over.

Re: Wesley. Character started off as a one-dimensional joke. Smart, with great knowledge and some training as a fighter (IIRC he was a champion fencer at the Watcher’s Academy) but bound up by his expectations of himself (and as we find out in AtS S5 the expectations of his father), cast adrift by the Council to which he’d dedicated his life when Faith went rogue. That he survived the months from the end of BtVS to his introduction on AtS is a tribute to his skills. On BtVS no one had any expectations of him and were in fact openly hostile and he withered. On AtS he was a valued member of the team and he thrived. He got a girlfriend and everything. But his newfound confidence was fragile, as evidenced by his near-immediate reversion when initially confronted by his “father” in AtS S5. Wesley was IMHO the most complex character on either of the Buffyverse shows.

SteveG1 - It was partially explained in Season Two’s The Dark Age. :smiley:

Damn. I must have missed that one.

OK, I never remember episode names, so bear with me. Maybe someone else can identify which seasons and eps I’m talking about here.

Before Anya was a vengance demon, she was a human. She was married to a troll - the same one who smashes up the magic shop and I think the Bronze later. (Played by the guy who manned the desk in ER). He had a thing for rabbits. I don’t quite remember if he raised them or hunted them or what, but his clothing involved lots of patches of rabbit fur. The idea seemed to be that rabbits reminded Anya of her first husband, the one who drove her to become a vengance demon specializing in punishing men.

I think Wesley’s transition was actually pretty smooth. He wanted to be a bad ass long before he suceeded. (Remember him showing up in LA as a badass “rogue demon hunter” and then falling down a lot?) He wanted to be tough and independant, but when he saw Angel and Cordy at the breakfast table, he realized what he really wanted was a family…awwwww. His descent into darkness was actually so gradual (and revolved around him discovering the prophecies around Connor) that it was pretty unnoticed at the time. He looked simply broody and preoccupied, and then turned out to be the bad guy, kidnapping Connor and giving him to Holt. Until we realized maybe he wasn’t so bad. But maybe he was. Great suspense with that character arc.

“Ripper” was referenced several times, mostly by Ethan Rayne, the chaos magician who made Buffy’s life difficult on several occasions. We do know that

Giles, Ethan and several other people (all dead) were part of a chaos magick or perhaps even black magick coven when they were young.While we never got the full story, it’s alluded that bad-Giles in Band Candy (the one where all the parents eat chocolate bars made by Ethan and turn into irresponisble adolescents) was much more like Ripper - even his accent changed to a much more lower-class hoodlum. And, you may remember, that’s when

Giles had sex with Buffy’s mom! Twice! On the hood of a police car!

There was talk for several years of BBC producing a spin-off called “Ripper,” which would have given us the backstory on Giles, but it seems to have sputtered and died.