I agree they need a good villain, and that there hasn’t been a great one since the Mayor. Maybe they should bring in the Mayor of Albuquerque.
Who says Sarah Michelle Gellar’s a bitch? Not that I read People or US often, but I’ve never heard anything of the sort.
And I don’t think it’s fair or accurate to bust on her acting. In the episode of Angel where she came to visit, Angel briefly became human, and then she learned he’d have to go back to vampiredom and she’d forget the last 24 hours, I think she showed serious acting chops. She was entirely believable and sympathetic.
Same with her work in “The Body” last season. SMG is a good actress.
Stoid, Giles is leaving because the actor who plays him is English and misses England. But don’t despair! Joss is developing a vehicle for him called “The Watcher” which will air on the BBC. I’m sure the DVDs will be available to us Americans in due course.
Another fan here ( though a far less involved one than I was in days past ). I’m pretty much with Telemark here. As solid ep, but not superb IMO. But then I have been of that opinion with most of the season openers.
I’m not one of those absolutely wedded to the first two seasons, which had some real clunkers. I DO think season 3 and 4 were weaker overall ( despite some individually strong moments ), but I thought last season was at least a partial return to form, particularly in its first half.
I won’t bother going into too many of the gory details of my complaints, so as not to give Storyteller0910 a cerebral hemorrhage . But Spike and Anya, two characters I’m generally well-disposed towards, were at the top of the list of “wrong notes”.
I will say that I think the opener did successfully lay the seeds of some compelling storylines ( particularly the Willow/Black Arts issue ) and it’s peaked my interest . And damned if I didn’t find the silly “Buffy-Bot” amusing .
Re:Angel - Going strong, with a very solid sophmore season. Too many core characters, though. Same problem as BTVS has periodically suffered through. The writers come up with these interesting characters and then they can’t seem to give them up. But it’s not yet to the point of being a crippling problem ( if it were me, though, Gunn and “Crazy Lady” would be relegated to guest appearances ).
Storyteller0910, Magdalene: Actually thinking about it, I feel I need to back up Legomancer’s point just a little. One doesn’t have to be a frothing teenage fanboy to find an episode crappy and worthy of criticism. Some rabid critics ARE a little over the top. But so are their counterpoints, the over-adulating fans. If we’re talking subjectively, hell yes BTVS has consistently been better than most of the fictional shows on TV. But objectively there have been many flaws worth noting. Either technically or just thematically ( personally, I always despised the whole B/A thing ) . No writer should be immune to criticism, from Skakespeare on down. It’s what raises expectations and makes better writers .
And of course personal taste enters into the picture. For example, with one exception, I’ve generally not been crazy about Marti Noxon’s writing style. Note that’s style, not necessarily quality. And Ive already mentioned my feelings on the B/A theme .
Not that I think either of you are necessarily in the mindless cheerleader camp. Just wanted to give another side of things .
Too bad, because I bet you could pick up WGN on your fillings where you live.
Show was pretty good, although I haven’t watched since Season 1. SMG has matured into a quite fetching young lady. The rest are cute, too. Okay, gorgeous.
That said, I agree with Telemark’s points (except about Angel - I never got into that show. Mainly because I was already watching Buffy and didn’t need to spend another hour in front of the set.)
Other nits to pick, I guess that little pot wasn’t all that important, if the spell worked even tho it was busted. And those things under Willow’s skin - did they get a deal on some extras from the Mummy flics or Evolution?
And slayer or no, it would have been a hell of a lot harder for her to bust through the top of a wood or metal coffin 6’ under, then dig through all that dirt, instead of just hoisting herself above the surface like she was popping out of a pool.
IMO it would have been better one hour show. They made those really neat looking demons, and all they do is throw things through windows?
I’d better quit before I just repeat everything I said over in the Cafe Society.
For the record, BtVS is my third favorite show, after West Wing and Angel. Last night left me kind of ho-hummed.
I thought they really could have done WAY more out of the Buffy clawing out of the coffin scene(s) and, most specifically, with the Scoobies’ guilt and shame over not thinking aobut opening the grave. They touched on it, and showed a lot of potential, but just left it hanging/dismissed it way too easily.
That being said, a ho-hum episode of Buffy is still countless times better than a “great” episode of nearly anything else on TV. Joss is, without a doubt, THE MAN, and he’s almost never let me down. I hold great hopes for the show on UPN, now that Joss has even more tools to work his magic with.
The fanfolk in the OP might want to turn their attention to the impending animated series. In Joss’ Onion interview, he referenced how it was going to take place in the high school years and deal with more of the issues that time of life raised for the characters.
I’m not saying that every criticism or discussion of a show is annoying fanboy behavior, but c’mon, people, you KNOW the behavior I’m talking about. Whedon isn’t perfect - however, plot holes, overused jokes, and lame villians aside he writes a fantastic, compelling show. Criticism and discussion are one thing - Obsessive complaining about minutiae in order to make yourself look cool, or prove you are more of a fan because you watched from the beginning, or attempt to mask jealousy that YOU don’t get to write the show, or pretend that someone, anyone, anywhere CARES what you think is obnoxious fanboy (and girl) behavior.
Well, I’m just an average viewer. Buffy is my favourite TV show. I’m also a Trekkie. I bring this up because I’ve found the same thing with both shows, although actually it seems to be worse with Trek.
I don’t like the complaining either. I will mention that I liked some things better than others. Discussion is fine. Some episodes you’ll like better than others. But there are always some fans that I have to wonder why they even bother to watch certain shows? I don’t hear anything they like about it. Just one complaint after another. If you hate it so much, then change the channel!!
I stay away from a lot of the complainers. I find that I can discuss stuff at the SDMB, but I don’t usually go to message boards devoted to the shows, because it’s generally filled with people who feel that they are the only ones who have the correct take on the show, and anything they don’t personally approve of is blasphemy.
Storyteller, I’m not going to be able to see the season opener until this Saturday because of the way tv is set up around here. Posting a “Spoiler” warning goes a long way around these parts, ya dig? (If someone has mentioned that to you already, sorry, but I haven’t read the thread because I haven’t seen the show yet.)
I’m old enough to drive so I’ve never seen the show either. But Sarah Michelle Gellar… ooooooooohhhhhhhh… tickle me pink and call me a clitoris, that’s one fine example of one-buffmanship!
Well again, speaking as one of the complainers (I should start an “Ask The Guy Who No Longer Really Enjoys BTVS” Thread) it’s not quite as cut-and-dried as that. I used to really enjoy the show. I found the last two seasons to be really bad. There are still some things I like about it, but mostly things I don’t. I am trying to give the show a chance to get back to the solid writing and characterization it used to have that didn’t rely on “very special episodes” and forced character decisions. I think there’s a talented crew behind the show that might be able to get it back on the track I enjoyed. That’s why I keep watching.
Look at it this way…if I said, “I no longer watch Buffy because I feel the quality has gone downhill” someone would inevitably say, “If you don’t watch it, how do you know it’s so bad?” It’s a no-win situation. The best I can do is like I did with the X-Files…watch until it becomes a complete lost cause to me and then stop. For that one, the beginning of season 5 became the point wher eI couldn’t take it any more. And even to this day I get people saying I should watch it because “It’s so much better now” who criticize when I say “No, sorry, that’s done with as far as I’m concerned.”
Another reason you hear people complaining a lot on the message boards is because for god’s sake someone has to. I was on the X-Files ng, which supposedly Chirs Cater read, and the whole thing was nothing but a giant handjob to Carter. No matter what godawful tripe had been on the screen the night before, the ng would be overflowing with “ANOTHER TRIUMPH!” and shit like that. It was nice to see the more tempresed souls and even the critical ones balancing them out.
There’s no rule that only gushing fans apply to the newsgroups and message boards, though I admit my experience with the X-F ng has kept me far away from any Buffy ones, even when I was fully enjoying it. It’s a forum for discussing the show, and if you didn’t like it, you have every right to say so just as much as if you did. And I know I’m in the minority, I realize I’m one of only a few people who think that the Dawn storyline was hopelessy inane and too drawn out and that Willow’s lesbianism was handled in a completely inept manner. That’s fine. The fact that I don’t have a lot of support in these opinions doesn’t make me re-think them.
Some Buffy fans terrify me. I tried the Buffy posting board for awhile and it was just… bad spelling and bitching. The best Buffy fan board that I know of is one centered on the W/T relationship. I lurk there and it’s quite fun.
The fans who post 80-chapter-long fanfics that are basically vomit on paper are the ones who most annoy me. I mean, there’s only so many sex scenes where the illiterate straight guy writes about anatomically impossible sex, crosses over with several other shows, and basically says “fuck you” to the english langage that a person can stand. Actually, the so many is any at all…
Buffy the Vampire Slayer is my favorite TV show. The writing is first-rate, character development shines, and the message of the show gets delivered. I’m 42 years old and I can’t wait to see each episode. To me, a good show is a good show, no matter who it’s marketed to.
That being said, I try not to read anything else into the show. I don’t over-analyze what single element works or doesn’t work. The whole production sweeps me away. I just enjoy it for what it is, an hour of intelligently produced, written and acted, fictional storytelling.
Good rant, storyteller. Joss and the others are writing the show as they want to write it. And the quality remains high, even if the plotlines are a little eh. If these critics can do better, then have them submit their ideas and stories to Joss.
I disagree. That’s really a weak argument. You’re not qualified to critique something unless you can do it better? A non-musician who has put some time into listening to a particular musician has no business making a judgement call on as to whether they’re having an off night? C’mon now.
. But Spike and Anya, two characters I’m generally well-disposed towards, were at the top of the list of “wrong notes”.
. And damned if I didn’t find the silly “Buffy-Bot” amusing 
.