Building Muscle and exercising

Seems like loaded language to me. What you consider evangelical others see as speaking the truth. And if that other happens to be a former strength athlete who’s gone on to train many other successful strength athletes, his opinion carries weight for me.

Just as a matter of practical decision making, if my goal were to get strong on the powerlifts, I’m going to follow the advice of the powerlifter, not the bodyweight/gymnastics enthusiast.

5X5 programs go back decades and decades, because they work.

Sorry, it’s just that after 15 years here I can look at some thread titles and know the direction (or lack of) that it will take - diet, excercise, circumcision, and vaccination to name a few.

No offense intended to any thread participant.

There is equally informed debate as to whether a protein supplement is hokum or not no matter when you take it. The question is equally subject to the limitations of “lifters need at least 2 grams of protein per kilo of bodyweight!” from someone who, by odd coincidence, sells protein powder. :wink:

Another supplement with some science behind it is creatine. But as usual, don’t expect miracles.

As for the low-reps-high-weight vs. high-reps-lower-weight question, this is confused by the fact that almost any regimen will allow an untrained or relatively untrained subject to make gains. If your baseline is low enough, you will improve.

Also, some people including all of the best bodybuilders and powerlifters, will make gains even if they train “wrong”. Don Blue, a well-known powerlifter from the 70s, did 10 sets of 10 in the powerlifts and made gains. Jim Williams benched almost 700 pounds training his bench six days a week. Arnold Schwarzenegger won the Olympia multiple times training each muscle group three times a week with 15-20 sets and 8-20 reps. Dorian Yates won it multiple times with 2-3 sets and lots of negatives and forced reps. Go figure.

Regards,
Shodan

Forty odd posts and nobody has yet provided the correct answer.

If your protein intake is adequate the only supplement I’d recommend is creatine monohydrate. Safe, cheap, and effective.

http://examine.com/supplements/Creatine/

Waymore, No duh that the evangelical and his/her followers believe that what is espoused is speaking “truth.” As do the acolytes of another guru. The epistemological question is how do the rest of us decide what truth is?

Assume the goal is to max out on the three specific lifts of powerlifting, whose truth do you follow and why? The Russian approach? The Bulgarian? The two a day work outs that many elites use? As Shodan points out, lots that one particular guru says is “wrong” has turned out many with amazing results.

Practically speaking most decide based on the sales package presented to them. Fortunately that’s is not such a bad thing as one critical part of a successful sales package is presenting the product as part of a social network of others who are likeminded and that support and built in competition probably becomes a major part of sticking with any program and geting the most out it. I am serious that deep faith shared with a group of others is a powerful tool that can often get results.

But those of us not wanting to join a group may want to use some other metric.

Mind you I appreciate that on many things the evidence is not of high enough quality to definitively decide which approach works best. Not every question has a 140 study meta-analysis addressing it. Sometimes “expert opinion” is the best we’ve got … but at least one should be aware of the range of that expert opinion and that anecdotal data exists to support all of them.

Next item is your statement “if my goal were to get strong on the powerlifts” … a big assumption to impose on the op. Martin’s interest may be only in maxxing out on 1 RM for those three lifts, and maybe yours, but many others who include strength as one of their fitness goals may instead see powerlifts as one possible tool to achieving strength, not performance on them as the definition of strength. (Again, nothing wrong with powerlifting as a sport and wanting to do your best at it, anymore than with anyone who is fixated on beating a marathon or a 5K PR or winning their age group in the tri.) Even if one believes that learning one of Martin’s preferred programs (by a specially trained coach) is the superior approach over all others to rapid progression in those three lifts, assuming that such is the goal of another fitness enthusiast who has merely stated that he wants to get stronger and more defined, is … presumptuous.

Runners were stretching before runs for decades and drinking X amount every so many minutes keeping pee not yellow (not by thirst) for decades … because coaches told them to … but they were wrong. They are mostly out of favor now because the science has showed that they were more harm than good. Something being done for decades is a poor reason to assume it works best.

Doctor Jackson, I honestly did not understand what you meant. But you may have a point.

Shodan “almost any regimen will allow an untrained or relatively untrained subject to make gains”? You do realize (see post 21) that Martin’s truth is that that fact is “stupid”? :slight_smile:

Of course he also believes that the statement “A beginner is less likely to get injured doing 8-12 reps with lower weights than 5/3/1 with high weights” is “simply incorrect.” It isn’t. Bodybuilders have lower injury rates than powerlifters. Bodybuilders spend less time doing low reps high weight sets and do more volume. (Of course he later said that of course doing low weight at first makes sense and that my saying he said otherwise was lying.)

Ultrafilter, do you find anything to object to in my post 37?

I haven’t had a chance to get back to this thread today. I should have some time to read tomorrow.

In the meantime, I found a really really fantastic Slate article about the replication controversy in psychology. The sort of issues that are discussed there are relevant to exercise science as well.

(I don’t know how well known the issue of replication is outside of the circles that I usually run in, but I assume that at least something in there will be new to most readers.)

The epistemiologic question, ultrafilter boils down the age-old issue of “appeal to authority” vs the scientific method.

Are you trying to say is that since sometimes evidence can be of low quality appeals to authority should be the preferred approach?

A single study that has not been replicated should be taken with a grain of salt. Uh yeah. A good evidence-based guideline should rate the quality of the evidence that each recommendation was based on. As the ACSM guideline does. The standard is A through D with A being a rich body of randomized controlled studies and D being panel consensus based on experience. The strength recommendation for the novice to intermediate level individuals to train at 60 to 70% for 8 to 12 reps was level A.

Now evidence-based guidelines place even poorer quality evidence, (observational studies or RCTs that have not been replicated richly, so on) over experienced based judgements … some in the real world may feel otherwise depending on the nature of that real world experience. Fair that. Many of the recommendations in that guideline for advanced lifters are not level A strength evidence; preferring experienced based judgements to that is reasonable (although being dogmatic and arrogant about it still annoys).

And it would be valid to point out that statistically significant and practically significant are not always the same thing. No doubt that what Shodan points out is true - from a practically significant POV a novice will make significant gains with a wide variety of approaches so long as they don’t do it in a way that causes injury.

But accepting appeal to authority as superior to high quality evidence? I don’t think so. Not any more for exercise than for evolution or heliocentrism.

These so-called “experts” are so off base, they’re not even wrong.

A novice lifter who has not completed at least several weeks of linear progression has no “rep max” at all! The very act of trying to measure their rep max (1RM, 5RM, whatever) will make them significantly stronger (thus increasing their max) before their next workout. This is the whole point of “linear progression”. A new lifter starts with low weights and adds weight to the bar every single workout until they no longer can. Start with 5 or ten pound increases per workout, go down to 2.5 or 5lb per workout, reset once or twice, and then move on to some more complicated programming after that. This is valid for all ages, genders and body types.

“Undulating periodization” is not helpful and is in fact counterproductive for anyone who hasn’t been training for years. It’s foolish that this counts as “science”, as anyone with even a year’s lifting experience under their belt can tell you. The people who published the links you posted have not even gotten themselves significantly stronger, let alone anyone else!

We’re at that point in Exercise “Science” where the experienced metallurgists are telling the alchemists how foolish they are, but the alchemists have degrees and so think they know better. Alchemists are also the ones getting published in “legit” journals edited by other alchemists. It’s a cargo cult. I actually saw an article by the NSCA recently about periodized abdominal training! The amount of bullshit peddled in this industry by people who have no financial interest in making anyone stronger is phenomenal.

Martin Hyde and ultrafilter seem to know what’s up. Listen to them. Read Starting Strength (it’s like an instruction manual for moving your body under a load) and its associated forums here.

I have very little interest in arguing with those who prefer the what they “know” to what actual evidence is, but this particular statement is so silly that I have to call it out. You really believe that one attempt at measuring 1RM will change 1RM for the next session so much that they could not stay within a a 60 to 70% range? Really?

Gosh gee. Who knew that a novice who benches maybe 120 (60 to 70% range 72 to 84, so maybe start at 80) will after one attempt at a max lift be able to lift 13 to 14 pounds more next time? Golly, I knew that novices could make rapid gains but I never realized how magical lifting heavy was.

Yes. Absolutely. That’s not even close to magic and it shows that you and your sources have no experience with lifting heavy weights. For a male trainee, the first several times you bench, you certainly will be able to lift 10-15lbs more next time, with that number going down to 5lb or so within a few workouts and eventually 2.5 for a long time before more complicated programming is needed.

The whole concept of rep maxes doesn’t apply to novices. That’s what makes them novices.

Your claim, the very act of measuring a 1 RM will increase a next session’s 1 RM by so much that 1 RM is meaningless for a novice, is just wrong, and illustrative of the bullcrap that people believe. Gains among novice’s are huge, again, pretty much with any progressive system, (and mainly secondary to initial neuromuscular adaptations, i.e. teaching the motor units how to fire in a manner coordinated for the specific task, not increased muscle mass, which is a much slower process) but not 10% plus gain afer a single lift. Even if someone really really believes.

Not that many actually use 1 RM in any system other than indirectly. As a general rule what someone can lift for 8 to 12 reps maintaining adequate form will be around 60 to 70% and what someone can lift for 5 reps maintaining adequate form will be somewhere around 80 to 85% of 1 RM. (With some individual variation.)

As to my experience, I readily admit that I have interest in being a bodybuilder or a powerlifter but for someone whose fitness interests are very broad and who places as much (or slightly more) emphasis on aerobic fitness as on strength (which I do not personally define as maxxing out on three specific lifts), I am happy enough that I can bench 10% over my body weight when I do sets of 5 as part of my mix. Still damn frustrated that I’ve had to accept that I’ll never succeed at an unsupported handstand push up though. Don’t really care what my 1 RM is though.

That should have been “no interest” - sorry. Typing quickly between things.

So, as you admit, you have basically no experience in improving max strength in the basic lifts, you link to those who lack experience, yet you want dismiss the opinion of experts who teach a method of lifting that has been in use for decades and has literally helped millions of people get stronger?

OP, read Starting Strength or the Strong Lifts program and you’ll be alright. Grey Skull and 70s Big also have good linear progrms for novices.

adapt the p90x routines to fit what your specific desires.
eat protein,
8-10 reps for mass
12-15 lean
can sub swimming or bike riding or jogging,whatever works
when I started a complete chest workout I could do 42 total push ups
after 6 months, 346 push ups.
most I could in a set 8
six months later
100
nothing makes a muscle stronger then using your own body weight as resistance.

Nothing except resistance that exceeds your body weight.

Exactly. Not to minimize your accomplishment (that’s more pushups than I can do in a week), but anything you can do 346 of isn’t a large enough stimulus to promote strength gains. It is primarily a test of muscular endurance. Getting your bench press to 1.5 times your body weight would also increase the number of pushups you can do while improving your upper body strength greatly.

I came to this thread excited to read some science papers, since I thought the SDMB would be a hokum-free zone. I’ll think about how to best craft a GQ OP that does not descend down the path this one took.

There’s a lot to talk about here, but I don’t think that you and I have a very fundamental disagreement. We’re just assigning different weights to different bodies of evidence.

What I really want to point out, and the reason why I asked about the studies on Starting Strength, is that the ACSM recommendations are based on a body of studies that haven’t examined these strength-based programs in detail. I don’t know why. Lots of people have been using those programs to get bigger and stronger, and the academic exercise science community just hasn’t followed up.

I’m hoping that those studies will be performed someday soon, but until then, you can’t go around claiming that the evidence shows that the ACSM recommendations are superior to these strength-based programs. That question just hasn’t been addressed in a format that those recommendations are considering.

I think it’s very important to make a distinction between treatments that have been studied and found to be ineffective and treatments that have not been studied. I don’t know why this isn’t made more clear in medicine and applied statistics classes.

As for the question of Mark Rippetoe in particular, it’s important to understand that the reason he’s regarded as an authority is that for a long time he was getting some of the best results in taking ordinary people and improving their strength. An appeal to authority is not wrong when the authority’s expertise is relevant.

By the way, for anyone who’s interested in current thinking on strength training, I can’t recommend Practical Programming for Strength Training highly enough. This is the book that teaches you the theory and explains how it informs program design. There are plenty of canned routines in there, but if you want to design your own, this is what you need to read.