I need to know this for a story I’m writing. If two people are wrestling on the ground and the guy on top is shot in the back twice, from a distance of about 1-2 metres with a handgun, will the guy on the bottom pretty much automatically get hurt too or is there a reasonable chance that both bullets will stay in the first guy’s body?
I haven’t defined the gun beyond it being a revolver that a character had primarily for hobby shooting. It shouldn’t be a rare or weird gun, though.
Someone will be along alter to clarify/correct what I’m about to say, but I’m pretty sure a .22 short, .22 LR subsonic, or a .25 caliber automatic pistol would do what you’re asking.
Like I said, I’m sure one of our regular shooters will be along to clarify/correct the information I’ve given you.
An M-16 round, .223 with a great deal of force behind it, has been known to hit a body and take an immediate left. At rapid fire, they might cut a man in half. (Not that I’ve personally seen either.)
Relatively few of us know the dynamics of bullets flying into bodies; the true, the possible, the likely and the obviously false. Most of us get our ‘knowledge’ about these things from movies and books.
We’ve all rolled our eyes at the unlikeliness of the action we’ve seen on the big screen but on the other hand, we love Bond and Indy Jones flicks where the action is over the top. My point is that the degree of ‘suspension of belief’ required comes from the context of the film or book.
Your beta readers and editors will tell you if a passage seems unrealistic. I’d give yourself the benefit of the doubt.
A full metal jacketed 9mm bullet is likely to go through the first person and into the second. A hollow-nose bullet is much less likely to exit the first person.
Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness by Special Agent Urey Patrick, F.B.I. Penetration is discussed around pages 11 and 12.
ETA: warning, pdf.
Your link is the beginning of an infinite loop.
Whoops, I guess I cut and pasted the wrong url. Anyway, Myself linked to it.
Have the guy shot in the back by a .38 Police Special. Common gun, common caliber and chance of over-penetration is minute.
So in short it seems overpenetration is way overhyped. Thanks guys.
Why such conclusion? It all depends on the bullet, angle and what exactly it goes through. Chances of overpenetration for all-lead 38.spl bullet are small - it’s not that powerful and easily deforming bullet of lousy penetration, suitable mostly for punching holes in paper targets. But virtually ALL full-power (9mm, .40, .45 etc.) FMJ handgun bullets will easily shoot through human, and maybe even both of them - as in your scenario, bottom guy WOULD get shot if weapon of choice was, for example, Colt .45 or Beretta 92 with military issue ammo. Also most of modern JHP ammo (as used by most of law enforcement agencies) have penetration between 12-14 inch, so if top guy is on the skinny side, then bottom guy is in trouble.
From pravnik/myself’s link and silenus, basically. I didn’t need to know if any handgun can ever shoot through a human, just if it were reasonable that one would not.
Oh, ok. Just wanted to note that while overpenetration might be overhyped in some contexts, but in given scenario many handguns shooting many kinds of popular bullets would penetrate top guy after all.
The bullet could enter and then exit and just miss the other guy, either from getting shot at a weird angle, or by bouncing around in the other guys body before exiting, or a combination of both.
The .38 soft-jacketed police ammo is designed not to penetrate further; that’s why cops carried it for so long. It is a very light round, and generally not available in full metal jacket. Same goes for common hunting rounds - they’re designed to deform and turn into ‘mushroom’ shapes upon hitting the target, doing not only more tissue damage (and bringing your target down faster) but not to go all the way through. A much smaller caliber round, like .22 or .25, would actually penetrate one side of the person but not have enough velocity to go through the other side, and if the round is further soft-jacketed, it would deform into a mushroom shape and do tons of damage bouncing around inside the body.
Military-grade ammo, with a full metal jacket, is designed to penetrate heavy clothing at least, if not body armor, so much more likely to go through guy on top and hit guy on bottom. It’s designed that way - the objective of military ammo is not to kill the guy, but wound him, for one very simple reason - you’ve just removed 3 effectives from the battlefield by shooting 1 guy - the wounded one and the two carrying him. Any ammo with a full metal jacket is designed that way to wound and has much higher penetrative power.
Having a bullet that passes through a person isn’t hard to do. In fact, that is what ammo manufacturers try to design against. You have to assume that anyone that is purposely shot is intended to die by the shooter. The challenge is too get the bullet to mushroom correctly on impact to maximize damage whether it is a deer or a person. A very hard bullet will often sail right through a body and that is usually not a desirable outcome.
Well, actually you never get reliable body armor penetration from handgun ammo (at least without resorting to very high velocity small caliber bullets). FMJ is used by military because of Hague Convention banning use of expanding bullets. If not that, I bet they would switch to modern generation of JHP in a second.
I thought the Hague Convention was against fragmenting bullets, not against expanding ones?
ETA - Looked it up - I was wrong, you are right. Hague prevents the use of expanding bullets, not fragmenting ones.
You’re right about pistol rounds, though - not enough force behind the bullet to be really armor-piercing, no matter what the bullet’s made of.
I thought the main reason police used (use?) that kind of ammunition was that it specifically wouldn´t go through a body, so that when shooting down Jack the Homicidal Maniac the bullet wouldn´t go on hitting Ethel the Little Old Lady he was holding hostage.
Exactly why, and it’s generally “used” in the past tense; I haven’t seen many cops who don’t carry at least a 9mm semi-auto anymore.
The .38 is a very light round, and this can be problematic. When my home town upgraded their police side arms was after a perp in the process of escaping an officer got his hands on the officer’s weapon and shot the cop; perp dropped the gun and ran, cop crawled to the gun and shot the perp 5 times but didn’t bring him down until 6 blocks later. That’s when the police chief decided that the .38 simply wasn’t powerful enough and upgraded all police sidearms to 10mm and later to .40cal.
There’s also the number of rounds - .38 is usually in a revolver, so 6 shots. 9/10mm or .40 is usually a semi-auto pistol so 10-13 rounds per mag with faster reload times. Cops were getting tired of being outgunned by nearly anybody they faced so had to upgrade.