Burn it down! (Republicans defund MO libraries)

Right now, the politics of the US is such that if one person steps up and says, “Democrats believe that you should sleep for 7 hours a day!” Then the other party will get up and say, “It’s a plot to corrupt your mind! You should really sleep in two shifts, each of 3 hours!” And that has nothing to do with political values, just the fear of being seen as being part of the other political party.

In that sort of environment, the political positions are largely just a random assortment of beliefs, based on not much more than a coin flip on who said something about something first. There’s no philosophy and trying to say that X is more like party A or party B is mostly just an opportunity to sort yourself with your heroes and exclude your villains, but it’s not based on much.

The word “Nazi” comes from “National Socialism” and they choose the color red, as part of the Socialist movement. The KKK was a movement full of Democrats.

Today’s Democratic party is closer to Hamilton and Lincoln’s “right wing” poltical groups, and shares basically the same geographical location.

And today’s Republican party is taking up all the historic left-wing positions, including some of the racist ones.

Personally, I don’t like the idea of simply shifting your politics and pretending that history was opposite to what it was. If you can switch from cheering for the Republican party successfully winning Roe v Wade to, fifty years later, cheering for it to be destroyed, because you simply went along with whoever and whatever the party majority says and never held any true positions, based on some real political values then when your team one day says, “Let’s start rounding people up and gassing them.” You’re liable to follow along.

I’m pushing back. There’s a real philosophy between the parties and those were consistent for centuries. If it can simply do whatever it wants then it’s all basically just playing make believe and throwing poo at each other for no reason but because city folk and rural folk must never agree on anything.

This, from the person who says words have meaning.

What’s next, a whole political party whose media and ideological leadership is bankrolled from the shadows by a guy who collects, like, Hitler’s personal napkins or something, who call the press and the schools enemies of the people, who rally around charismatic strongmen who have slogans that are insanely ultra-nationalistically on the nose, and you’ll tell me even those guys aren’t fascists?

Ignorant bothsides-ism that bears almost no reflection to what’s actually happening in this country.

Do you also believe that China is a republic, because they have Republic in their name? Do you think North Korea is a democracy, because they have “Democratic” in their name?

The single biggest Democratic stronghold in the US is California, which had about 400,000 citizens when Lincoln was alive, and which didn’t even exist when Hamilton was still breathing, so I’m curious what fucking drugs you were on when you wrote this.

Also, the right wing political groups during Lincolns time included literal slave owners, which are pretty thin on the ground for the modern Democratic party.

Name two.

I don’t know what the fuck you’re even trying to say here.

Yeah, and that changed, because things aren’t the same right now as they were two hundred years ago. The idea of “pushing back” against the idea of evolving political parties is just exceptionally stupid, and considered alongside of your assertion that the Democratic party used to be the party of the Klan, makes it appear that you think the Democrats should be taking a pro-slavery position. Which, to be clear, I don’t think you’re actually advocating, it just appears that you’re advocating it because you lack the ability to hold one thought in your head from the beginning of a post to the end of it.

This is such a muddled mess of pseudo-ideology and political misrepresentation I’m not sure where to start with it. Although the National Socialist German Workers’ Party (NSDAP) did start out as a ‘workers’ rights’ party in its predecessor Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (DAP), albeit one with strong nationalist and xenophobic tenets, it rapidly became a ‘far-right’ polity in terms of social conservatism, rejection of general entitlements, persecution of minorities, and *Völkisch nationalism, and under Hitler’s leadership dispensed anti–corporate and anti-capitalist rhetoric as it appealed to the wealthy corporate upper class who saw that gravitating to the party would ensure protection for their interests and eventually slave labor. The NSDAP of the post-Weimar era was distinctly corpora-capitalist and anti-worker protections even without consideration for pressing ‘political prisoners’ into servitude.

The ‘Dixiecrat’ Democrats of the Reconstruction era were not liberals (either in the classic or modern sense) and certainly not ‘left-wing’ progressives; they almost completely split from the national DNC and shifted to Republican party in the ‘Eighties and ‘Nineties. The modern GOP is most certainly not “taking up all the historic left-wing positions”, and while you are correct that the modern DNC is actually hewing closer to traditional centrist politics (and far from being ‘left-wing’ in the leadership or general membership) that is a pragmatist shift toward a political center, not a polar flip. Dick Nixon would actually fit in pretty well with the current Democratic party, and Reagan would be rejected by current Republicans as a flaming liberal, which tells you how far the entire political establishment has shifted on a conceptual left-right ideological scale.

Stranger

What I see is that you’ve linked to an interview in which Adolf Hitler says that Socialists don’t deserve to call themselves Socialist, because they’re aligned with Marxists and Communists, so he’s replacing Socialist Socialism with a different kind, that is based on nationalist racist solidarity. That is, Nazism.

Do you think that means that Nazis were left wing, or do you think that means that Hitler was trying to make the word “Socialism” mean something extremely right wing?

“First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak up, for I was not a socialist”.

The Nazis’ position with regards to socialism and unions was clear: They rounded them up and threw them in concentration camps.

The Democrats used to be right-wing, and held right-wing positions. Now they’re (relatively) left-wing, and hold left-wing positions. The Republicans used to be left-wing, and held left-wing positions. Now they’re insane, and hold insane positions. Just because racism used to be a Democratic position, doesn’t mean it was ever a left-wing position.

Meh. If they used to be right wing, their leftward journey to date has them in the fuselage, rather than all the way out on a wing.

@Sage_Rat is Sage Ratting again. He’s a conspiracy minded right winger and sometimes his imagination gets the best of him.

Sometimes it’s fun to watch and sometimes it’s just annoying.

Uh uh, Can you tell me then what were the right-wingers doing when the fascist parties were taking over before WWII?

AFAICR, in Germany in the 1930s the main right wing conservative party (Deutschnationale Volkspartei, DNVP) cooperated with the Nazis and later dissolved itself as they became a part of what they really were.

@Sage_Rat Where do you get the idea that fascism became authoritarian? Pretty much everyone says it was so from the beginning. Same with being nationalist and racist. It was started by the far right, after all.

The definition linked above seems more like how people use the term. I don’t know anyone who uses it to mean that the government acts like a union–a concept that doesn’t make sense in an authoritarian government. Unions have to be run by the workers, after all.

I fully want a government that protects workers. So do many people. Would anyone (besides MAGA trolls) call that fascist?

If I said so, it was bad phrasing.

But, here, let’s accept that authoritarianism is right wing (for now). And my original statement was that it’s more correct to call fascists authoritarians when we’re talking about the things that we don’t like about them. So, hey, the Nazis were right wing, yay!

But, that being said, the uniquely fascist elements of their beliefs are the socialist/left wing elements that lead to ideas of industry-specific collectivism (corporatism). The nationalist elements just say that the people want the freedom of self-determination for their country and to be secure within it. Mohatma Gandhi was a nationalist.

Corporatism is not genocide, nor is nationalism genocide. Genocide is the product of a desire to smash anyone you view as hostile towards yourself and that’s authoritarianism. Authoritarianism long predates Fascism, mostly predates nationalism (though maybe not at the domicile level/tribal level), and you could argue isn’t so much a political belief as it is a human instinct that can be easily turned into a driving force.

In general, there’s an idea that you can only be left or right, but not both. If you’re “both”, then you’re a centrist. Likewise, there’s an idea that you can only be an extremist if you’re at the far left or far right. I don’t know of any evidence to support either of these theories. These are poor ways of categorizing things.

Let’s say that a centrist position is to talk things out and come to a consensus. Yes? In an easy going centrist system, you let that system take as long as it needs, with food, side panels, games, etc. In an extremist centrist system, you lock the two sides in a room with no food and either they die or they work out the conflict and agree to something.

There’s no law of the universe that centrism can’t be extreme.

Gandhi fought for nationalism though peacefulness and self-harm. I don’t know whether that should be considered extremism or the exact opposite.

And Stalin and Mao were clearly left wing commies. They are also both authoritarian dictators which we agreed, right up at the front, to consider to be “right wing”. But there’s no argument that either of these guys was a centrist. So we can be pretty confident in saying that you can take elements of belief from either side, and still exist, and not be a moderate.

In general, if we say that collectivist thought is left wing and individualist thought is right wing - which is generally accepted until the last couple of decades but would certainly have been true at the time - then which side is authoritarianism on? You could place it on the right by saying that in an individualistic society, one individual will reign supreme as the strongest and most mighty of individuals. In a lawless, unordered society, might makes right. And authoritarianism is the word for that. But you could also put it on the left since authoritarianism is, ultimately, the only way to achieve a collective. You’re not going to herd cats nor humans into any reasonable configuration of synchronicity without a top-down, violent, controlling fist. And, in history we do have Stalin, Mao, etc. all turning to authoritarianism so it doesn’t seem distant from them.

I’d personally say that left and right are pretty loose terms. Some things we can more specifically relate to them like collectivism and individualism. Other things are more difficult.

It’s better, in my mind, to just call them what they are. Authoritarianism is what it is, regardless of whether it’s a communist, a king, or a libertarian who is using it. And any of them can use it. It remains bad, either way. And if ancient kings were using it - and they certainly weren’t Communists - then it’s probably not accurate to class it as left or right, just bad.

Most of Eastern Asia practices something like corporatism. They’re very concerned with appearances and making sure that the trains run on time. If you remove the murder, the slavery, and the conquest from the Nazis, and just do something more reasonable and easy-going, you’ll end up with Singapore and Japan - you know, those places commonly described as being more “collectivist” than the West.

So, again, if you want to call the Nazis right wing then, sure, but it’s because they were authoritarians and - if it pleases you - I’m fine with putting authoritarianism down on the right ( I don’t think it really makes sense on a left-right scale but sure). The actual original elements of fascist beliefs - corporatism, a focus on appearances and social cohesion, etc. - seem to have mostly been left wing and diluted down versions of socialist thought. The non-original, not-unique-to-fascism elements of dictatorialism are just dictatorialism. If you want to glue them into fascism then sure but I think it’s better to keep it separate because it’s not unique to fascism, can be removed from fascism, has been removed from fascism, and could just as easily be added to other belief systems.

I am moderate, leaning left. Because I want people that may be a bit different than I to have the same opportunities that I do.

No, I do not want to try to give everyone free food and shelter for life. That can’t be done.

But for the unfortunate, those with a sense of decency need to step up and help them get out of their condition. We help a person with a flat tire for instance.

The GOP’s attitude of “I’ve got mine and want more is crazy, and the rest of you F’off” is not sustainable.

Sure we all want to be rich. I am by most standards. BUT I care about others. I always vote for higher taxes on my ‘class’. Especially when it comes to education, which we seem to be in dire, dire, need of.

It appears that the GOP wants to create more people that will be susceptible to things like ‘Trump Bucks’. And all the other cons.

Miss 4th time winner of her GED said that it’s cheaper to have a child than to take birth control.

Who are these people?