Bush already planning on using Bird Flu as excuse for Military Action in the U.S.

[crowmanyclouds]

WTF

“One option is the use of a military that’s able to plan and move,” Bush said. “So that’s why I put it on the table. I think it’s an important debate for Congress to have.”

WTF
Wikipedia on Posse Comitatus Act

TITLE 6 CHAPTER 1 SUBCHAPTER VIII Part H Sec. 466. Congress finds the following:

1. Section 1385 of title 18 (commonly known as the Posse Comitatus Act) prohibits the use of the Armed Forces as a Posse comitatus to execute the laws except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress.
2. Enacted in 1878, the Posse Comitatus Act was expressly intended to prevent United States Marshals, on their own initiative, from calling on the Army for assistance in enforcing Federal law.
3. The Posse Comitatus Act has served the Nation well in limiting the use of the Armed Forces to enforce the law.
4. Nevertheless, by its express terms, the Posse Comitatus Act is not a complete barrier to the use of the Armed Forces for a range of domestic purposes, including law enforcement functions, when the use of the Armed Forces is authorized by Act of Congress or the President determines that the use of the Armed Forces is required to fulfill the President’s obligations under the Constitution to respond promptly in time of war, insurrection, or other serious emergency.
5. Existing laws, including Title 10, Chapter 15 (commonly known as The Insurrection Act), and The Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act (Title 42, Chapter 68), grant the President broad powers that may be invoked in the event of domestic emergencies, including an attack against the Nation using weapons of mass destruction, and these laws specifically authorize the President to use the Armed Forces to help restore public order.

Sense of Congress

Congress reaffirms the continued importance of section 1385 of title 18, and it is the sense of Congress that nothing in this chapter should be construed to alter the applicability of such section to any use of the Armed Forces as a posse comitatus to execute the laws.

WTF is he asking for that he doesn’t already have?

[Baldwin]

Apparently somebody gave Bush a book about the 1919 pandemic. Of all the times for him to read a book. . . .

After 9/11, I thought, “Well, now they’ll give the CDC all the money it needs. In fact, surely that’ll be a priority.” Nope.

As I understand it, quarantines aren’t likely to be an effective way to combat such a pandemic, anyway, because influenza spreads so rapidly and widely. Not that reality has ever had much of an impact on Bush’s policies.

So, is Michael Chertoff still saying that the Dept. of Homeland Security, and not Health and Human Services, would be in charge during a pandemic? Of course, he said that before his department’s disgraceful failure in regards Katrina. Haven’t heard much from him lately. If we do get hit by something as bad as the 1919 flu, I hope Chertoff is the first casualty.

[Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor]

@Good Egg

It does not matter who is president at any given time, he answers to people behind the scenes, who have been working on this since before you were born.

Egg is getting Telepathic Messages from the Boheimein Grove again… :rolleyes:

BTW—
Don’t you think it wiser to be concerned by the influenza, rather than by the measures taken to fight it?
Priorities, people?
:dubious:

[jimpatro]

It does not matter who is president at any given time, he answers to people behind the scenes, who have been working on this since before you were born.

Hey, I’ve seen that pyramid on the back of the one dollar bill!
Should I stock up on aluminum foil?

[Frank]

@Mac Guffin

He wants to use the military to enforce quarantines. Say you have a city, say, Chicago, that has a major outbreak of avian flu. Now the military is put out to keep people from entering and exiting the city.

From the article…
Now say you don’t have the flu, and you don’t wanna be trapped in Chicago. how do you get out if the military is enforcing a quarantine?

You don’t. That’s the whole point of a quarantine. You’re perfectly likely to be incubating the flu, and if you leave, you’ll introduce it to an area that doesn’t have it. That leads to the Milwaukee police force blocking people from Chicago from entering their city.

Bush’s idea is certainly worth thinking about, not as the only option, but as one of a number of possible actions.

[DeadlyAccurate]

@This Year's Model

Bush’s idea is certainly worth thinking about, not as the only option, but as one of a number of possible actions.

But if a quarantine of a city were necessary, wouldn’t it be better if the governor called up the National Guard instead of the President? If I’m understanding it correctly, the governor of the state is perfectly within his/her right to do so.

I’m curious if someone more knowledgable than me could explain to me what crowmanyclouds is talking about. What I mean is, how is the bolded part he/she mentioned different from what the President is asking for?

[light_strand]

It won’t work anyway. By the time people actually become sick with the flu, enough people incubating the virus would have left the city to make quarantining moot. Airborne viral diseases are too easily spread, and the American populace is far too mobile to make quarantines effective.

Scientists just isolated the 1918 virus, and found that it actually can be relatively easily treated with modern antivirals. If the president really wanted to make a difference, he would start pumping federal money into vaccine development, which has become somewhat of a backwater in pharmaceuticals. No companies want to make them any more because of lawsuits. The scientists who worked on the 1918 strain are saying it shouldn’t be too hard to create a vaccine for this modern strain of H5N1, and vaccine production, as well as stockpiling antivirals (which is in the budget) should be the focus of any new policies.

Of course, this would be far too logical, and Kellogg, Brown & Root won’t make any money off of it, so expect the troops,

[Lemur866]

You guys do realize that the 1918 influenza outbreak killed about 40 million people around the world, right?

How many people should die in the next outbreak before we decide to do something about it?

[Digital_Stimulus]

@Lemur866

You guys do realize that the 1918 influenza outbreak killed about 40 million people around the world, right?

How many people should die in the next outbreak before we decide to do something about it?

And you do realize that it’s not the “deciding to do something about it” that is the issue, but what that something is, right?

[Squink]

@Digital Stimulus

And you do realize that it’s not the “deciding to do something about it” that is the issue, but what that something is, right?

After all, we made it through the Polio epidemics of the 1910’s through 50’s without handing the president extraordinary new powers. The whitehouse’s fixation on ultra natural disaster’s requiring ultra national responses seems to me merely an attempt to cover for failures in carrying out the normal functions of government.

[MaxTheVool]

As a liberal Bush-basher, I don’t see anything hilariously wrong with this, IF he’s saying “if there’s a massive national emergency, and God Forbid there comes a situation where it’s urgent that we use troops to enforce quarantines, I’d rather have already established that I’m allowed to do that, rather than have to worry about the legality of it then”.
On the other hand, as crowmanyclouds points out, that exception already appears to be built into the law. Maybe he’s just trying to get it clarified that a pandemic could qualify as an emergency for these purposes?

And as others have pointed out, this is a bit of a damned-if-you-do damned-if-you-don’t situation for him, after Katrina. If he’d floated an idea like this a week before Katrina saying “I’d like the authority to use army troops in case of a hurricane”, why would anyone’s reaction have been any different than it is now?

[Marley23]

@light strand

It won’t work anyway. By the time people actually become sick with the flu, enough people incubating the virus would have left the city to make quarantining moot. Airborne viral diseases are too easily spread, and the American populace is far too mobile to make quarantines effective.

I’m having visions of Twelve Monkeys all of a sudden.

I’d be interested to see an answer to crowmanycloud’s question. Does Bush not already have these powers?

[light_strand]

@MaxTheVool

As a liberal Bush-basher, I don’t see anything hilariously wrong with this, IF he’s saying “if there’s a massive national emergency, and God Forbid there comes a situation where it’s urgent that we use troops to enforce quarantines, I’d rather have already established that I’m allowed to do that, rather than have to worry about the legality of it then”.
On the other hand, as crowmanyclouds points out, that exception already appears to be built into the law. Maybe he’s just trying to get it clarified that a pandemic could qualify as an emergency for these purposes?

And as others have pointed out, this is a bit of a damned-if-you-do damned-if-you-don’t situation for him, after Katrina. If he’d floated an idea like this a week before Katrina saying “I’d like the authority to use army troops in case of a hurricane”, why would anyone’s reaction have been any different than it is now?

My objection for this is not the illegality of it, but the irrationality. Why does Bush always go right for the atomic weapons when a fire cracker would do? It’s like he just wants to prove how powerful he is. As evidence for this, he wanted to get full power over the LA National Guard troops.

The administration sought unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor. Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night, concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law.

A president does have the powers to use troops under the “Insurrection Act”. However, it is not clear whether an epidemic would be just cause. It would definitely have to be cleared through congress, and probably (IMO) wouldn’t pass.

That said, wouldn’t it be more logical to make concrete steps, like vaccine research and production, and ready access to antiviral drugs?

[Sean_Factotum]

@The President

“We need to know, on a real-time basis, the facts, so the world’s scientific community could analyze the facts,” he said

I’m not convinced that he will interpret the facts correctly. We all see how this administration treats the output of scientists studying global warming, and that his take on oil conservation is to drive less, not require higher mileage standards.

[Biotop]

@Baldwin

Apparently somebody gave Bush a book about the 1919 pandemic. Of all the times for him to read a book. . . .

My Pet Chicken…?

[World_Eater]

@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor

Don’t you think it wiser to be concerned by the influenza, rather than by the measures taken to fight it?
Priorities, people?

:dubious:

Not really. Look at 9/11. The response fucked us up more as a country then the actual event did.

[Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor]

@World Eater

Not really. Look at 9/11. The response fucked us up more as a country then the actual event did.

Forgive me, but there is no comparison.

Bird Flu, a’la 1918, would kill many, many times more people than 9/11. And 9/11 was localized. The 1918 influenza was national, & I see no logical reason why it would not be so again.

And it took months for survivors to recover, thus seriously impacting food production/distribution.

Finally, even Bush can learn. I despise him, but it seems he can learn, a little. And early on, during 9/11, he was green & frankly scared.

[World_Eater]

@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor

Forgive me, but there is no comparison.

Bird Flu, a’la 1918, would kill many, many times more people than 9/11. And 9/11 was localized. The 1918 influenza was national, & I see no logical reason why it would not be so again.

I’m not saying it wouldn’t fuck things up. I’m saying if not properly planned for, the response could be worse then the 500,000 or so dead.

Finally, even Bush can learn. I despise him, but it seems he can learn, a little. And early on, during 9/11, he was green & frankly scared.

He was green and scared so he invaded Iraq? Huh?

Invading Iraq in response to 9/11 = bigger fuckup then problem
Enabling marshal law in response to pandemic = bigger fuckup then problem

[crowmanyclouds]

@Marley23

I’m having visions of Twelve Monkeys all of a sudden.

I’d be interested to see an answer to crowmanyclouds’ question. Does Bush not already have these powers?

I’m relying on the Wiki article in post 38 Posse Comitatus

“This article needs to be cleaned up to conform to a higher standard of quality. This article has been tagged since September 2005.”

So I’m not sure if the latest changes to the HSA (Homeland Security Act) are reflected in the text. If, the HSA did change there’s still this,

Exceptions
There are a number of exceptions to the act. These include:

Troops when used pursuant to the Federal authority to quell domestic violence{,or.} as was the case during the 1992 Los Angeles riots;

The President of the United States can waive this law in an emergency;

In December 1981 additional laws were enacted (codified 10 USC 371-78) clarifying permissible military assistance to civilian law enforcement agencies—including the Coast Guard—especially in combating drug smuggling into the United States. Posse Comitatus clarifications emphasize supportive and technical assistance (e.g., use of facilities, vessels, aircraft, intelligence, tech aid, surveillance) while generally prohibiting direct participation of Department of Defense personnel in law enforcement (e.g., search, seizure, and arrests). For example, Coast Guard Law Enforcement Detachments (LEDETS) serve aboard Navy vessels and perform the actual boardings of interdicted suspect drug smuggling vessels and, if needed, arrest their crews.

So it’s clear to me,

[ul]He can use the troops to quell domestic violence at will[/ul]
[ul]The President can waive it (Posse Comitatus) in an emergency.[/ul]
[ul]additional laws were enacted only “generally” prohibiting direct participation of DoD personnel in law enforcement, just no search, seizure, or arrests.[/ul]
I don’t think he’s asking for any new powers, (it might be a low flying trial balloon).
Bush can’t just use the power he already has “if you can do it for a bird-virus, why didn’t you do it when Katrina hit”
He’s just setting up congress to get the blame if the bird-shit hits the fan,“I warned them, but they wouldn’t listen”
My problem with the whole thing is this {my comments}

Press Briefing with Scott McClellan October 5, 2005

Q Thanks very much, Scott. I want to go to the avian flu. The President talked about it yesterday, wanting the Congress to take a look at the idea of empowering the Army or the Armed Forces to ensure quarantines. Is that part of a larger plan that the President wants to see in the case of a pandemic? Would he go so far as to shut down the borders?

MR. McCLELLAN: Well, this is something that the President feels very strongly needs to be discussed. I’ve talked about this recently, he’s talked about it recently. The military is the one organization that has the capability to come in quickly and help stabilize the situation in the event of a severe, catastrophic event – in the event of a major terrorist attack, in the event of a ultra natural disaster like a Hurricane Katrina,{he could have called the military in on Friday before it hit} or in the event of a disease pandemic. And we should not limit our options when it comes to protecting the American people. He thinks this is something that should be on the table. We need to look at ways, the best ways to minimize the spread of – the potential for a deadly disease like this to spread, and to save lives.

And that’s what the President has talked about. The threat is serious, and that’s why the President, for some time now, has been focused on this. And we’re moving forward on a comprehensive strategy. Secretary Leavitt is very involved in overseeing the implementation of that strategy. The President has numerous meetings with his health experts. It is a global threat that requires a coordinated approach, and that’s why, at the U.N., the President talked about the international partnership. We need to make sure that we’re prepared with partners around the world to be able to quickly – to identify a potential outbreak from this disease, so in the best case scenario we’re able to go in there and contain it at the spot.{Great GO IN WHERE? "See I told you Iraq is nothing like Vietnam, {we invade Vietnam {only to kill all the terrorist birds}now do you believe me!}But we also need to be prepared for – in the event that there is an outbreak and it spreads to the United States. And the President believes this is an important option that we ought to have on the table, and that we ought to discuss.

Q Back to the avian flu. The President talks about the possible involvement of the military. Public health officials, as you know, believe that probably the greatest hope of containing this is this promising vaccine and an adequate supply of it, that last part being the problem. Does the President’s option – do the President’s options include recruiting the pharmaceutical companies that have been reluctant to stay in the flu vaccine business – recruiting or coercing some of them –

MR. McCLELLAN: One thing you need that’s very important is real-time reporting, particularly from the region where an outbreak could occur. And that’s something the President has talked about at length.

Another thing you need is to make sure that we are moving forward on developing vaccines against the H5N1 virus. The President talked about that yesterday. We’re working to do that. We’re working to expand our stockpile for antiviral medications like Tamiflu, which he referenced yesterday, as well. {But what about recruiting or coercing the pharmaceutical companies. Lets declare martial law on there asses.}}

Q But public health officials will say that a big part of the problem is the withdrawal of the pharmaceutical companies from the business of making flu vaccines for a variety of reasons, some of them economic. Is there a discussion about recruiting them with –

MR. McCLELLAN: These are all issues that we’re looking at, Bob. I don’t have an update for you right now, but these are all issues that we’ve been looking at.{Hey it’s not like we got a plan or anything! GEEZ!} Secretary Leavitt has been moving forward on a comprehensive strategy that the President has directed him to implement, and we’ll be talking more about that, as well, in the future. And this is something we will – we remain focused on and we will continue to talk about as we move forward.

[samclem]

If the Avian Flu actually occurs in the Western Hemisphere, and if it actually impacts the US in any significant way, you’d better bend over and kiss your ass goodbye.

Because the people in charge of any department that has any ability to deal with such a catastrophe will have already retired in disgust from government service, and been replaced by cronies, party hacks, and malfeasants(is that a word?).

This current administration has gutted more departments than any in history. If I didn’t know better, I’d say that they are a plant from the communist, or whomever the current bugaboo is(Islamic terrorist?).

[sub]Thinking of pretending I’m Sam Stone and telling people I live in Canada. (I love you Sam )[/sub]