shrugs
Where do you think most Americans get their news? And how much of the HELIEDHELIED was there in those sources?
Where do most American’s get their news? Probably from a variety of sources including the web. Where to most American’s get the majority of their news? From the main outlets I’d say…broadcast and cable news. How much of the ‘He Lied!’ meme was in those sources? Probably not that much, but a non-zero amount.
Mostly I saw it on the major outlets (CNN, Fox, CBS and BBC are what I mainly follow) in the editorial sections, or on shows like Crossfire or The No Spin Zone…things like that. Peripherally it was seen often in the coverage of the various protests…big signs proudly proclaiming ‘Bush LIED and people DIED!’ hung about the neck of Nazi uniformed effigies of Bush and his cohorts.
I think it was a meme that was a bit more widely known and understood than you seem to think it was. Thats just my gut feeling, and as anna pointed out I don’t have a ‘cite’ to back that up with either.
-XT
Yeah, I have those too. They’re not very reliable, you know.
Yet you share them with us all the time 'luci. 
-XT
A “non-zero sum” is a lot smaller than a barrage of constant chattering. Thanks for admitting that much.
Maybe, I don’t watch or read major news outlets that much. But your point earlier was that (without looking up your terminology) a barrage of incessent HELIEDHELIEDHELIED from the left is what drove Bush to victory… I charged that it was a minor issue largely resulting from the realization by the left that people just had no concept of it.
http://www.makethemaccountable.com/leopold/030226_PowellWarnedBush.htm
So does he. You and I don’t start any wars, unless you do.
Only if you assume that American’s are in some kind of news bubble unless it comes from a major outlet. ARE you claiming that?? Also, ‘non-zero sum’ could mean anything from (any number greater than zero)% to 100%…both are non-zero, no? In other words this was my way of saying ‘I have no frigging idea, but know that it happened sometimes as I observed it myself’.
I was merely addressing your point about the the meme in the major outlets. I never said this the only way American’s were bombarded by the meme…you seemed too. I only indicated that it WAS also addressed there. I think American’s heard the He Lied meme in any number of places…and that it was pretty common knowledge. How to test this theory though? No idea here. You got any ideas?
In addition, I said it was a factor…not the ONLY reason Bush won. I do believe that the various Bush bashing themes had an impact on the election, including the He Lied meme. However, this back and forth is pointless to my mind…you are convinced it didn’t have an impact, my own observations tell me otherwise.
Well, I’m not sure what this has to do with your quoted statements (or mine), but I’d say that Bush making a gut call and being wrong about it was an excellent reason to get rid of the man. Too bad THAT wasn’t the major meme chanted at by the left instead of ‘he lied’.
-XT
Excuse please, but didn’t you just admit that this is nothing more than your “gut feeling”? Our “gut feeling” is that Bush lied, why is yours any better, considering that we actually have evidence to buttress our intuition, and you got squat?
Really? You have real evidence he lied and knew Iraq didn’t have WMD? Memos perhaps or maybe taped conversations of GW saying he knew Iraq didn’t have WMD but that we should invade anyway? Some other solid proof? Well trot it out 'luci and lets look it over. I’ve yet to see anything but speculation and bullshit…some real evidence would be rather refreshing!!
BTW, don’t twist my words…when I said ‘gut feeling’ I wasn’t talking about this issue but about something entirely different. Perhaps you figure that you can score some points by trotting this out because people will be too lazy to go back and look? Well, let me get that out of the way:
In case you were merely confused by what I was writing, and giving you the benifit of the doubt, let me do a brief translations for you 'luci. I’m saying here I have a gut feeling about how wide spread the meme of ‘He Lied!’ was in the general population. I wasn’t refering to whether or not Bush ACTUALLY lied or not here…nor what my feelings were on it one way or the other. I’m sure you were merely confused though and not trying anything underhanded though.
-XT
I don’t mean to speak for xtisme, who has done a fine job of speaking for himself, but I think the contention that nobody knew about the “Bush lied” meme is a laugher. Here are Bush lied t-shirts. Here are Bush lied bumper stickers. Here are Bush lied buttons. Here’s Bush lied on ebay. Here are articles referring to the Bush lied meme in salon.com, [, the [url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v4/sub/MarketingPage?user_URL=http://www.theglobeandmail.com%2Fservlet%2Fstory%2FRTGAM.20040314.wiraq0315%2FBNStory%2FFront%2F&ord=1106619003404&brand=theglobeandmail&force_login=true]Globe and Mail](]the Guardian[/url). Here’s the meme being referenced on the radio. Here’s former Senator Max Cleland saying that Bush lied to us on Iraq. Here’s an article in the Washington Post talking about Al Sharpton hitting the meme in one of the Presidential debates (and noting that Sharpton’s accusation that Bush lied was met with “heavy applause”). Here’s a USA Today article in which Senator Robert Byrd accuses Bush of lying on Iraq. Here’s a Reuter’s article talking about how former Vice President Al Gore hitting the relevant talking point. Here’s John Kerry varying the theme slightly by talking about how Bush and Cheney didn’t tell the truth about WMD in Iraq. Here’s Michael Barone responding to the “Bush lied folks” (which would certainly be an interesting response if no one had ever heard the refrain "Bush lied).
Shall I go on?
What on Earth could possibly lead you to this conclusion? 
He DID lie…multiple times. That’s just a plain old fact. Some on the left keep repeating it because we’re amazed at the level of denial of those who continue to support him.
The guy freaking lied to start a war and kill people. Hello? Hello? Is this thing on.
Oh…and he’s stupid too. That’s no caricature. The guy believes in creationism for Christ’s sake. Creationist = dumbass. Case closed.
Originally posted by robbie
I’ll correct you both. First, Reagan’s statement had nothing to do with global warming or CO2 emissions, for the simple reason that at the time he said it, global warming was not on anyone’s radar screen. In fact, at the time there was a worry about a ‘new ice age’ and global cooling.
What Reagan actually said was that trees produce more ‘oxides of nitrogen’ than industry. He wasn’t correct, but he was close. Trees do pollute - the Smoky Mountains are smoky because the terpines emitted by the forest break down in sunlight into smog.
While Reagan wasn’t strictly correct, he was a lot more correct and educated than the people who giggled and guffawed at the very notion that trees could emit pollution.
From this NASA press release:
(*) Reagan has always claimed that he was misquoted, and that he said “Oxides of Nitrogen” and not all air pollution.
Do you know why “ideas” can’t be copyrighted? I pray for ideas worth stealing (and I’m not a Believer, as a rule).
That’s just a cop-out.
If I had written you off, I wouldn’t have been hounding you so much all along, now would I? 
Didn’t stop you from denigrating the Left, though, huh?
It would be nice if you had a cite for that “spade”. I don’t think you’re crazy. There’s another term that comes to mind…
A preemptive “I know you won’t get this” is just another cop-out.
But how nice of you to bother with a reply, Xtisme, when you already know what I’m going to think or say… Thanks much.
I’d dispute your position on what “Creationist =.” And apparently, Bush would dispute your position on Bush’s position on evolution (quoting a NY Times piece).
I guess that would make him agnostic on evolution. The article is really old, though (from 2000). If there’s updated info, please let me know.
I can’t tell you what a relief that isn’t.
DtC, I envy your ability to communicate that effectively. I’ve been dancing in circles this entire thread, and in others, about technicalities and turns of phrase that take page after page of posts and never get clearer. You sum it up nicely: amazed at the level of denial. It’s just… it makes no sense. An otherwise reasonably intelligent person like Bricker has gone on a rabid defense over the span of several threads trying every trick in the book to say anything but Bush didn’t lie. It is unreal. As I phrased it, like arguing with a retarded donkey (which Bricker isn’t).
“agnostic on evolution” = fucking unbelievable dumbass.
Is the “jury still out” on heliocentrism too?
Yes. You found some bumper stickers and a half dozen or so editorials.
It is quite simple: The “left” “barraging” the American People with HELIEDHELIED just isn’t relevant. No one decided to change their vote because they had been told that Bush lied one too many times. It had no effect whatsoever on the voting. It is just an expression of horror and frustration at a nation that is just so… blind.
This thread is bordering on the unreal. “Agnostic on evolution”… what the HELL does that mean?