Bush Knew

The BBQ Pit
21

anth I dthink you did not deserve getting hung up on at all. Maybe you might think about trying to document that call (time made, did you catch the CS employee’s name(?), number called) and turn in that asshole too. From what you wrote, you do not seem you were being in any way abusive (which is the only way I would condone hanging up).

As for the attendants, if American allows them to do that, well, I think it is a fairly stupid policy being that their industry was one of the most hardest hit by the events of 9/11. Shouldn’t they be more sensitive to what the customers may think and easing their mind about being on a plane rather than making unnecessary and potentionally volatile statements…and on their luggage, of all places.

I could really care less about seeing that on the back of Joe Blow’s pickup truck, but I would definitely pause at seeing that on an airline employees’ belongings that will more than likely be viewed by patrons.

22

The First Amendment is not declared null and void when you go to work because it was never intended to apply to private businesses. The Bill of Rights is about restraining government power. That is a basic and crucial distinction.

I don’t really care either way about the stewardesses, but it’s very clear that American Airlines is not Congress. The First Amendment prohibits Congress from passing laws restricting freedom of speech.

23

REvTim - there’s something called ‘professional demeanor’, and employers (at a certain level) require it. We don’t expect to see CEO’s wearing Jimmy Buffet Gear and drinking from beer cans attached to caps while on their way into their corporate office. I personally choose to not have any bumper sticker on my car (Partially 'cause of work stuff), but if I’m identifyable as an employee heading to work (this would exclude the parking lot), yes, my employer has the right (IMHO under 'appropriate work attire provisions) to require that I not wear the jacket with the sequins spelling “Fuck you” on the back, to not advocate or denigrate political parties/religions/ethnic groups etc.

I can do so all I want after work, (while not in uniform). And had the stews in question not been in uniform (changing at the last minute, draping their coat over their luggage) I wouldn’t have a problem w/it either.

24

They also have the right to ALLOW employees to have some self expression, as apparently AA is doing as described in the OP. Can’t we just try to live with stews having stickers on their luggages without making angry calls to the head office?

25

So, where would you want that personal expression to end? Certainly on the job, stews are regulated far more in personal appearance than the average person on the job, right? I’d personally be more concerned about them having some more freedom in that arena vs. bumper stickers on their luggage.

I’m in a public arena during my work day and wouldn’t dream of advertising my religious, political POV. It’s inappropriate.

26

Tom, it’s obvious from the OP that the Flight attendants were at their place of work, i.e. Anthracite clearly stated that at least one of the attendants was on her flight. They’re still at their place of employment until they leave the public areas of the airport. While they’re in the airport, in uniform, they represent their company. As such, logos of the type they were displaying could be construed by a reasonable person to be a sanctioned political statement by their employer.

27

Anthracite: Once I heard the “click,” I’d’ve been bound to that airline’s local manager.

28

So I read the title, and the OP, and had a Sanford moment:

[sanford]I’ve seen it all now! I’m coming, 'Lizabeth! I’m coming! [/sanford]

Is the Duchess of Darkness now broadcasting from a position leftward of mine own? Way leftward! This cannot be, says I.

(Click…four minutes, 17 seconds of hamster hum…)

Turns out to be the worst example of title abuse since Guinastasia’s notrious and justly infamous “Hot wet pussy” thread. Libido judo.

Mamma, your boy done got conned again. Well, yeah, a woman. Why do you ask?

29

So you want Anthracite to deny his 1st amendment freedom of expression so that the stewardess can enjoy her 1st amendment freedom of expression?

30

Would you support the stewardess’s right to have a sticker that says “I support Al-Quida’s actions.”
Let me clarify by stating that this particular stewardess has no intention of hijacking an airplane or harming you so your safety isn’t a concern. She merely has a sticker that says “I support Al-Quida’s actions.”

Would this be appropriate?

31

Hey Revtim I want to work where you work! I have my own office in the bowels of the building and I would never be allowed to put up a sign like that (besides the fact that it’s just plain stupid). You see my company makes all sorts of demands on my 1st amendment rights. We have a dress code, rules about insubordination, and rules on how I have to use my time.

Now I understand that you could, in some weird way equate a sticker on her luggage with a bumper sticker on your car, except for the fact that you don’t drive your car into the building and park it in front of your office.

Anthracite I think that you were treated like shit by AA, and I would pitch a bitch to a higher authority. If you need a complaint letter, I’ve got plenty of them I can loan you. Call it a hobby.

32

So say one of the stewardesses was a Muslim, and wore the scarf on the head they wear. Would you consider that a something that could be construed by a reasonable person to be a sanctioned religious stand by their employer?

33

Seems pretty simple to me:
If such statements bother you, don’t fly that airline anymore. If you want to let them know why you’re not giving them anymore business, do so.
If enough people do the same, they’ll either change their policy or lose precious business that they really can’t afford to lose right now.
And yeah, businesses are allowed to set standards for dress and such, but if the employees consider those standards unsatisfactory, they too can lobby the business to address and change the policy.

34

Do cabin attendants have the right under the Constitution to express any view they might wish? Save maybe carrying a big sign that says “this plane is going to crash and all passengers will be dismembered and the bloody fragments of their corpses incinerated,” I suppose they do. That’s not the problem. The problem is that a business to which I entrust the security of my person and the future of my family while being catapulted through the ether some seven miles above the ground is hiring people who are stupid enough to walk around with that slogan plastered on their equipment. It makes me doubt that American Airlines is bright enough to trust with my person. If American Airlines does not recognize this maybe they ought to go into some other business, the ministry, perhaps.

As has been frequently pointed out on these boards, there may be a Constitutional right to say stupid things but there is no Constitutional immunity from being told that what you are saying is stupid.

35

Well, there is one small question, admittedly something of a quibble.

If the sticker in question had a different import, say it was something that mocked the concept of global warming…

Would you have been on the phone as quickly?

If the answer is “No”, then it does take on some (rather minor) 1st Amendment implications.

In truth, I gotta think your only legitimate complaint is the rude and boorish response you got from the flak catcher. Of course, that is entirely valid grounds for complaint.

In the words of e.e. cummings: “There is some shit I will not eat”

36

I don’t deny either of these points.

However, no one has posted any information regarding the rules under which the airline and the union operate. It is entirely possible that the union was placing labor stickers on their bags at some earlier date and in the resulting conflict won the right to post stuff unhindered. Blaming AA for having lost that fight is a bit unfair.

It is also possible that the airline officials are/were not originally aware that anything was being placed on bags and that, as we hash this out, the attendants are being reprimanded and ordered to remove the stickers. Remember, the only discussion with the “airline” so far, has been with a person answering a phone who has clearly not been adequately trained to that task.

Each example of failure on the part of American Airlines that I can see has been an example of poor training: attendants who know squat about diet and food preparation and customer service reps who are not well trained to deal with the public. The claim made in a couple of posts that American Airlines must tacitly approve of the sentiment is absurd, given that we have no idea what rules govern personal expression between the company and the union and that our sole expression of corporate intention has been a level-one phone answerer with poor training.

I still think the “stews” are twits.
I still think that the person taking the phone call was unprofessional.

I have seen no evidence that (yet) justifies blasting American Airlines except for having really poor screening or training of the people they hire.

37

The OP has got to be the lowest most despicible thing I have ever seen on the internet. To actually brag about such behavior when it is so awfully shameful.

The original poster objected to somebody at the airport wheeling a piece of luggage with a political sticker attached to it. She did not agree with the sticker she saw. (Neither do I for that matter.)

She did not approach the person with the political sticker, but noted her company uniform, and telephoned the company to try to get “something done”, suggesting Klan stickers as an analogy.

Presumably this flight attendant was off duty and had not yet had an opportunity to change clothes. Presumably since the observer and the flight attendant were in the same area, this was a public area. This leads me to the conclusion that the since O’Hare is a public airport, that this took place on public property, on the flight attendant’s own time, and that the objection here is to still wearing the company uniform not having had an opportunity to change yet.

We may infer from this that the original poster objects to opinions she disagrees with being displayed in a public place, but not enough to say anything to the person with the offensive opinion. But she is enough of a sneak to try to get the flight attendant in trouble and be censored for having displayed said offensive opinion. Oh, that is so very, very brave. So principled. There was nothing sneaking or cowardly or craven about it. Not. Screwing with someone’s livelihood for having an opinion you find offensive is about as low as a filthy steaming pile of shit. And that is about as nice as I can be about it.

And don’t try backing out now by saying you were just complaining about policy. We all know you identified the flight number when complaining. We all know what you were really up to, you were trying to get a “liberal” fired.

And we also know that you went straight to the Klan thing because it is the sort of political statement the “liberal” might find offensive, but which you did not. It’s also a false analogy.

How would you like it if someone let your boss know that you are posting things about the Klan on a public message board on company time. With all the thousands of posts you have made (all on company time?) I’m sure someone could figure where you work and who you are. And it could be done anonymously too. Just like neighbors informed on each other in Nazi Germany and various Soviet states.

It’s a good thing the vast majority of conservatives are not such low down cowards. I truly hope somebody gives you a taste of your own medicine. What a selfish, ugly excuse for a human being you must be. :mad:

38

I think that the main issue at hand is whether the stewardesses were “on the clock” or off. I don’t have any direct experience with the airline industry, but in my past work experience I can wear whatever the Hell I want when I’m “off the clock.” However, when clock in and start working the (insert crude/offensive phrase here) comes off. Using the same situation, the stews only have to worry about their appearance when they’re on the plane and working… until then, it’s their perogative. Anyone in the airline industry have the same impression?

That’s a general statement. For what it’s worth, I share the opinion that saying “Bush Knew” is pretty ridiculous. There’s no real evidence to support that claim, and it’s purely inflammatory.

On the other hand, I think comparing that to support of a racist organization (“We love the Klan”) is also purely inflammatory, and thus pretty well out of line by the same terms. Anthracite probably deserved to be hung up on for that, in my opinion. I doubt she would have stood for that sort of comparison had she been on the receiving end of the conversation.

39

What the sticker said (although idiotic) is completely irrelevant. Flight attendants have the same free speech rights as the rest of us when they’re not on the job. “In the airport” is not the same thing as “on the job”. Huge, huge difference there. When they aren’t on the clock, they have the right to wear or say anything they want. Period.

Wearing a company’s uniform doesn’t automatically make you responsible for only projecting views that the company finds agreeable, unless you are actually on the job. The company may have the right to dictate whether employees are allowed to wear their uniforms outside of the workplace, but if they don’t they can’t pick and choose what employees are allowed to say or do while traveling to and from work. It sounds like AA does not forbid employees wearing their uniforms outside of work. So when you saw them, they were ordinary citizens who you happened to know work for American Airlines.

40

Well, most of the folks here don’t have half a brain, or isn’t that obvious? And what’s worse, it’s willful. Any honest fool would realize that it isn’t the company position, but that isn’t what the complaint is, the complaint is about the view expressed.

The First Amendment isn’t null and void every time someone goes to work either. In my state it is against the labor code to punish anyone for their political beliefs while not on the clock. Moreover, it is against the NLRA for an employer to unilaterally announce to employees that they may not express opinions on bumper stickers etc when they are unionized. I’d like to know where the original poster and supporters were a few weeks back when a big unionized company tried to ban the Stars and Bars on vehicles parked in the company parking lot? That is a much more offensive statement: a heritage of treason, slavery, hatred and racism.