Bush Knew

The BBQ Pit
41

Sparticus I’m willing to bet that she would have been brushed off by the attendant. I see nothing wrong with complaing to a higher-up with a concern. We are, after all, customers, paying her livelihood. Perhaps the attendant would have gotten angry, butr I doubt anth confronting her would have done any good any way.

I just don’t think it is professional, from where she is employed. She could have been off the clock, but so what? She was still in uniform and in plain view.

When I worked at places that had uniforms, I tried to be on my best behavior while still in the uniform, even if off the clock. Sorry, maybe it’s just me.

42

Now why can’t we blame them for losing that hypothetical fight? We certainly wouldn’t blame them if they’d won.

At any rate, they represent AA - I don’t care if they did strike an agreement with their bosses, having those stickers reflects on AA. So even if the stews fought to have the stickers on there, it is AA who is responsible. If I worked at Burger King and successfully petitioned BK to let me wear a swastika, that would still reflect poorly on BK.

43

BS. Their place of work is on the airplane. The OP saw these people wheeling their luggage in the airport. They have just as much right to make their views known in the airport as any other person. The issue here is whether working Americans have the right to put bumper stickers on their belongings that the fascists don’t like. You guys don’t like that AA may allow free speech on or off the job, then fly another airline.

44

Well of course she would have been brushed off by the flight attendant, or maybe had a political discussion. And of course it wouldn’t have done any good, but it wouldn’t have been downright cowardly and disgusting. When did we start standing up for tattle talers, squealers, rats and stool pigeons in this country? As for the flight attendant showing poor judgment, both in nature of the message and displaying the any message, well, I agree, but I am not so awfully thin skinned that I’ve got to whine about it and try to get someone fired. I am quite obviously just beside myself at the shocking nature of the behavior that the OP ascribes to herself. It is just so vicious and intolerant. I ran across the OP and I’ve (obviously) been steaming out my ears, rolling my eyes and spitting ever since. When did we come to this kind of crappy behavior in this country?

45

She was making a complaint (several actually), not necessarily ‘trying to get some one fired’.

that’s a might big leap o logic there.

46

Allow me to call “BS” right back. I worked in a medical center before, and my “place of work” was in my office, but that doesn’t mean I could wander around the lobby of our hospital across the street wearing a “HMOs don’t care if you live or die” button on my briefcase. You bet I’d get called in about that if someone saw my ID and flipped out.

Regarding flying another airline, allow me to guess that this is the whole point most of these posters who disagreed with the flight attendants’ actions and airline’s lack of caring. They are saying that some attendants’ are displaying signs hinting that the government willingly allowed the murder of thousands of people, including people on planes, in full view of people they will be serving, and that this does not serve to make passengers happy and comfortable. They are shocked that the airlines wouldn’t care that their customers are being made uncomfortable about flying and angry.

47

Sparticus, have you ever had an issue with an employee of a company? What have you done? Said nothing? And this, I say, because we don’t necessarily know if the flight attendant was on the clock or not, but because she was still in the vicinity. I believe she has every right so say what she wants, but as you also agree, the very nature of her job and her display of the sticker in the vicinity of the workplace is bad judgment.

It’s visible where common people like me who won’t necessarily think about the First-Amendment and other stuff right off the bat. A knee-jerk reaction to you, perhaps, but seeing something like that probably would not sit well with me either.

As wring said, I didn’t see anywhere where anth said she wanted them fired. Maybe she just wanted to express her uneasiness and have clarification of policy from CS but apparently they did not do such a good job at that, either.

48

I’m with Sparticus on this one. Narcing on someone to their boss behind their back is more unpricipled and offensive than almost any sticker I can think of, even the Klan’s. It’s carping customers like that that make service jobs as unpleasant as they are.

49

Let me clarify a couple of things before I get into the nastiness.

The reason I was upset is that the events of last year really, really, really upset me. I have not posted much about them here, but have in my 1st Personal Journal (which some of you may have seen) elsewhere. But the 9/11 hijackings really terrified me. I travel an awful lot, on those same airlines, and in those same routes, and I still, to this day, am greatly…troubled by them. And the tremendous loss of life and incredible anguish and suffering.

“Troubled” is a euphemism for “has nightmares and often feels like crying over the events, followed by a backlash of irrational violent hatred for the criminals that did them.”

If the stewardesses had had stickers which said nearly anything else I would not have been bothered. They could have said “Re-Elect President Gore”, “Tawana was right!”, or even “Conservatives are evil”, and it would not have caused me to say anything. Not a thing.

I know this because I see these things all the time, and they don’t inspire me to any action other than ignoring.

However, having just come off a very long flight, and being about to board another, it really did bother me. Think about it - AA stewardesses, on an AA flight, carting luggage in front of all their passengers/customers, espousing a political viewpoint that not only is intended to be inflammatory, but is sorta, well, fringe for the current time, is it not? I mean really, I haven’t followed the “Bush knew! (and Osama flew!)” Turk-182 type issue that closely, but I really don’t think it’s generally an “accepted valid theory”.

The tragedies of last year have been on my mind continually as I travel. What the stewardesses did was in incredibly poor taste, and also was very upsetting to see.

It also made me feel like they were behaving highly unprofessionally in their job. I don’t know about most of you, but I would be fired or “forced to quit” if I put a sticker like that on my laptop bag and went to work conventions like that. When I am in the public arena, representing my company in any way, I need to dress, act, and be professional. This seems simple to me, and I cannot fathom why anyone would think otherwise. When I am at social events at conferences I am technically “off the clock”, and yet, I must still act with some measure of decorum and style.

My Klan analogy is valid. If a company is not allowed to say “Hey, come on, don’t be putting things like “Bush Knew!” on your luggage, especially when you are part of the flight crew.”, then do they have no limits? Really? What if it was a swastika, or a “White Power!” symbol? Lines must be drawn somewhere, sadly, when the employees cannot show the basic common sense and decency to be professional while they are around the people who pay their bills - the customers.

This seems simple to me. Perhaps I am just screwed.

And I did not address the flight crew directly. Why? Simple. Anyone who travels as much as I do knows there is now One Cardinal Rule - do not fuck with the staff while in the airport. Complaining loudly, or complaining at all, seems likely to bring the security staff over to “Have a word with you”. I have seen it happen numerous times since last year, and no thanks, I don’t want to be in a windowless office with no door handle for 3 or 4 hours while I explain why I was “harassing” the flight crew. Ask sailor sometime about how friendly airport security personnel can be to you…

I think a couple of people need to re-read my OP. I did not mention any names, in fact, I did not get any names to mention. I am not terribly upset by being hung up on, surprisingly, and I actually hold nothing against AA. But I think they really need to think about how something like that affects their customers.

I was not the only one who noticed the stickers, and who was offended. Many people commented on it, and some swore pretty openly, although not to the stewardesses. I likely was the only one who called, as that seems to be par for the course IRL.

It just seemed simple to me that the whole thing was wrong. Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think I am.

50

I still don’t see the First Amendment implications in whether or not Anthracite would have complained about a global warming sticker. Anthracite is not the government. She is free to complain about whatever message she dislikes. There’s no First Amendment implication there.

Neither the NLRA or labor codes are the First Amendment. The First Amendment applies to the government. There are statutes that proscribe certain behavior but they do not extend the First Amendment to employers.

It might seem like a quibble to some, but the First Amendment gets cited on these boards an awful lot for things it doesn’t stand for. The First Amendment limits the right of Congress to pass certain laws. It does not prohibit Anthracite from choosing what messages are worthy of a complaint to American Airlines and the NLRA is a completely different animal from the Bill of Rights.

I don’t know much about the airline industry. For all I know, allowing bumper stickers on luggage is allowed under a collective bargaining agreement or some obscure statute. But let’s please lay off the spurious First Amendment arguments. It is a vitally important amendment but it has its limitations.

51

The hospital is private property. More specifically, it is the property of your employer. They can dictate any dress code they want.

The airport is public property. American Airlines does not have the right to dictate the views expressed by its employees when they are off the clock, in a public area. At most, it could require them to change out of their uniforms before they go home. That’s it.

To put it another way, does Burger King have the right to dictate what bumper stickers are on its employees’ cars, if they drive into work while wearing their uniforms, and park near the restaurant?
**

It doesn’t matter what the airlines think about this particular issue. (Although clearly AA’s customer service people could use some lessons in not hanging up on people.) They don’t have the right to force their employees not to express unpopular opinions.

52

Displaying a sticker saying “BUSH KNEW!” identifies you with a brand of venomous lunacy - of the sort that might otherwise manifest itself with stickers calling for mass deportation of Arab-Americans, stating that Jews working in the WTC were warned not to show up for work on the day of the attacks, that Clinton caused 9/11 etc.

In this day and age, I do not want to fly with venomous loons.

And since it is very difficult to draw a line between crazy, offensive speech and legitimate expression, it is reasonable to me that employees in uniform should be prohibited by the company from lobbying for their political or religious beliefs, period.

Have a long, happy life on the SDMB, Spartacus.

53

To the melonheads bitching about Anth “narcing” on the stewardesses to AA customer service: Get a freaking clue. When you’re making a complaint about, and trying to get clarification concerning, a company policy, you ask the company, not its employees.

54

At conferences or other after-hours professional functions, I think it could easily be argued that you are still on the clock. (I go to conferences as part of my job, and while I am interacting with other people in my field, I consider myself to be working.)

I strongly believe the flight attendants have the right to put those stickers on their luggage. I also believe that the stickers they chose are obnoxious, inflammatory and counter-productive. I’m sorry to hear that you found it so personally upsetting. However, I personally think it’s wrong to associate the actions of jerks with the company they work for, when they aren’t at work. However, I understand your frustration, since you correctly pointed out that you were inhibited from talking to them directly by airport security rules.

55

I disagree that ‘the whole thing’ was wrong… I don’t think it’s that black and white. Obviously, that should be clear to you by now, based on the responses you’ve gotten.

However, I don’t think you’re “wrong” either. The only place where I think you were pretty much completely wrong, Anthracite, was in mentioning the Klan stickers to the person on the phone, who likely has no contact with the stews in question, and did nothing wrong other than (most likely) being poorly trained. At that point, you went over the line and became abusive, in my opinion, and as I said you deserved to be hung up on for that.

In the rest of what you say, I do not think you are being unreasonable. However, I would like to ask you, what, exactly, would you like to see happen as a result of your complaint? What is your goal in complaining? What (if anything) would make you feel better about the situation?

I’m asking these questions in all seriousness, with no sarcasm or vitriol intended. As I say, I think your feelings on the matter are understandable, even if I probably would not have felt the same, and overall you were quite reasonable, apart from the Klan komment… er, comment. But realistically, what did you expect to happen as a result of your complaint?

56

Nice strawman. Does it keep the crops safe?

57

Eh, I’m of two minds. I tend to think, generally, censorship is bad. Seeing people freely express their idiocy lets me know exactly who to watch out for. But at least one poster already said they might not fly AA, which neatly illustrates how, once you represent a company, it’s in their interest to have you follow certain employee conduct rules (see the employee handbook, kids, that’s why they exist. You, by agree to and continuing to work there, have agreed to abide by what’s written in it.)
So when you sign up with a company, you’ve VOLUNTARILY (see above) lost some of your rights to be a free-lance idiot. People should take the time to know what they’ve agreed to when they take a position.

When I was a supervising more than I am now, it was somewhat entertaining when people felt free to “defend their constitutional rights” without reading the manual or thinking for a minute about professionalism.
That’s like handing HR a free “feel free to fire me for cause” card.

There are people who do need to be fired. They just really suck .
Luckily they’re usually the same ones lining up to jump on that rickety soapbox (honestly, it was on fire when I jumped on it!).
Which simplifies things for everyone. You shouldn’t have a customer service job if you don’t understand the concept. Period.

I’m all for people complaining about legitimate bad service, it lets someone who has half a brain and a bit of work ethic have a crack at the job. That’s practically a public service in this economy.

As to whether or not they were on the job at that precise moment.

It’s highly unlikely those stickers came off at their “report time”, which is generally 1-2 hours before departure, and is before they would take their luggage on board, generally through a public area.

These guys aren’t “at work” the moment they step into a plane (or when they put on their uniform, but most companies also require professional demeanor any time you’re wearing the uniform, on duty or off),

Cabin crew generally have a report time prior to boarding where they get any briefing, get paperwork together and prep their areas, and and a release time after when they pass through customs, etc. Also, if they have several flights in a day, unless they have a “legal rest” of 8+ hours in a hotel, once they “show”, their workday starts, and doesn’t end until their “release” time. Those stewardesses will be pulling those bags every time they change planes in the middle of their workday.

The briefcase analogy is a very good one. A sticker on your briefcase at the 7-eleven on your way work is fine. If it’s still there when you enter your office, it’s unprofessional as hell.

If in fact AA does allow stickers, I agree with Tomndeb, you can bet it’s part of the union contract.

I don’t necessarily agree w/ Anthracite on how offensive the stickers are, other than to think “oh look, those stewardesses must be idiots”** . But that’s part of what the customer service dept is, the complaint dept. She can call customer service and tell them their uniforms are the wrong shade of blue if she wants to, and all they have to do is politely take down her concern, assure her AA cares about her opinion, and pass it along. And if a lot of people did, well, wouldn’t gold epaulets look lovely on a field of periwinkle?

(**Idiots, not because I know the truth in this matter but because I’m damn sure they don’t either, and I’ve got this thing against people attempting to persuade via the incredible power of stupid slogans.

I’ve been wanting to print up some bumper stickers that say “I Believe In Bumperstickers” to stick on the cars of particularly heinous offenders, but that would be wrong. Funny, but wrong)

Sounds like AA has some employees with lousy customer service all right. I’d call again, and speak briefly to a manager if only to let them know you were hung up on, and what your original concern was.

58

:o
The above “Intaglio” post was mine. I failed to check to see which of us was logged in.

This was my sentiment, and in no way should be attributed to my lovely, and more even-tempered, wife.
I beg all y’all’s pardon.
:o

59

Well, that’s fair; it’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. Fortunately, I, also, am entitled to my opinion, which is that this has to be the lowest most drivelling piece of idiocy I have ever seen on the internet. Ain’t opinions great?

Let me see, there. I count two presumptions, three shaky inferences, and not much else. Obviously, an airtight chain of logic on which to make such a condemnation. If only I had your reasoning skills… I’d be out of a job. But that’s another story.

Whoops, make that three presumptions, three shaky inferences, and a trio of psychic events! Wow, the power of threes manifests itself! I am Sparticus, You are Idiot.

Either that, or Miss Cleo, which amounts to the same thing.

60

Please explain to me how a customer making a complaint or querying a company policy is narcing on someone to their boss? A customer has a right to complain or to question if they are unhappy with a member of staff or a company policy, just as the company has a right not do anything about if they don’t wish to (but they should damn well ignore it in such a way as to not offend the customer, unless they want to lose business).

Now if you were a co-worker and told their boss on them, that would be ratting on them out - of course, it’s up to your own conscience to decide if co-workers ever should rat on co-workers & if so, why. But a customer has a right to expect good service, or at least clear answers about aspects of their policy, without being accused of ratting people out.

Also, if it is a breach of company policy (something no one currently knows in the thread), then Anthracite is not getting the employees into trouble, they are getting themselves into it - supervisors also walk through airports you know, and they usually have a far sharper eye for infractions than customers since they know what to look out for. I still can’t see it being a firing offence, just a request to remove the stickers, unless they were on their umpteenth warning for inappropriate behaviour already, and that is certainly not the customer’s fault.

Could you also define carping for me, as in the contexts I have heard it used, it means repetitive complaints about the same issue, and usually in a whiny irritating voice, which isn’t the case here - the original issue was clearly explained, and the action taken also explained, with its reaction. No repetitive whining, no carping at all.

Avalonian, why is the Klan comment so wrong? It certainly isn’t offensive - she didn’t accuse the customer service rep of being a Klansman/woman or yell at them. I fail to see how likening one inappropriate political sticker that could easily offend or upset sensible people to another inappropriate political sticker that could easily offend or upset sensible people is abusive.

I am Sparticus - is this a threat?

If it isn’t, you’d better explain so - a brief trip through this pit will show cases of this happening to people and it is a considerable invasion of their privacy, not to mention threatening and abusive behaviour.

Whilst we’re at it, I think you should apologise to Anthracite for calling her a racist without any proof.

Not to mention all the other things you called her - if you object to what she did, then comment on that, but to attack her personally, calling her a racist, a coward and a selfish, ugly excuse for a human being is offensive, rude, and extremely damaging to your point, if you had one - all that people will see is the ad hominem attacks on Anthracite (not to mention the oh so witty side-swipe at the entire rest of the board) & label you an arrogant, inconsiderate asshole.

Frankly, if this is “the lowest most despicible[sic] thing [you] have ever seen on the internet”, you’ve lead an exceedingly sheltered existence and probably shouldn’t be venturing into the pit just yet.