The Grand Egghead may be right about Bush’s unseemingly checkered military career being considered no big deal at the time. But let’s put the shoe on the other foot and see how things smell. Imagine if Clinton had used his influence to weasel a spot in the national guard and jump ahead of dozens of other more qualified applicants when the alternative was to be sent halfway around the world and become part of a widely-despised shooting gallery (although, in terms of the gross number of deaths, the Vietnamese were literally about 100 times worse off). Imagine then that while about half of the over 50,000 of his fellow countrymen who loyally served and ultimately died are still waiting their turn this jerk decides that he has better things to do and abandons his responsibility to go work on a friend’s political campaign. The first thing that jumps out at you is just how unthinkable it is that had it been Clinton the issue would have received anything like the scanty attention it did. As our annoying past abundantly demonstrates, the vast legions of Clinton haters permeating the news media would have been harping on this one until everyone who has English as their first language was aware of what would have most assuredly been described as Clinton’s opportunistic cowardice. The second thing that jumps out is that it wouldn’t have been at all unreasonable for them to do so. It would have been opportunistic and it would have been cowardly.
Predictions are an iffy proposition but, if I knew that I’d be living 20 or 30 years from now, I’d be willing to bet that the blatant favoritism show Bush by our news media will someday be considered one the great scandals of our nation’s history. Al Gore never once claimed to have “invented” the internet. What he did claim was to have led congress in originating the legislation that set up the creation of the internet and, indeed, he did exactly that. In the meantime Bush was claiming to be a political outsider — an awesome barefaced lie — and nobody that I know of said boo — not even the Gore campaign itself which, in truth, was genuinely hapless.
The Master has tended to equate Clinton haters with Bush critics and while the Grandpa-was-a-Nazi thing is clearly a case of hyperventilation over reason, I think he, like the most of the media, is guilty of being a little more than fair.
Exactly. As I understand it, Clinton sought, and obtained, an entirely legitimate student deferment, as did many, many young men who were in a position to do so. As would I, had I been just a couple of years older. He did not enlist in the National Guard, while pulling strings to jump the waiting list, and then simply fail to appear when it became inconvenient for him to do so.
There is a big, big difference. I do not fault anyone for using entirely legal means to escape the draft. Using powerful connections to get into the Guard ahead of everyone else and then simply not bothering to appear for much of his term of service (and presumably using the same connections to escape discipline for that and then get an early honorable discharge) is another thing altogether.
The thing about this that bothers me is that Cecil seems to have based his take on this on one news article. I’ve read the FOIA released papers on the subject, and nowhere do I see any papers that say bush was AWOL or a deserter.
In fact, the timeline put together by the site hosting those FOIA papers says that Bush actually volunteered for a tour of duty in vietnam in July 1970.
Still, Bush didn’t finish out his hitch. Not by a long shot. And I can’t imagine the Clinton-is-the-devil crowd letting a little thing like that stop them from sliming him on the other stuff. And there’s always the off chance that he knew he wouldn’t be selected and so his volunteering was for show. But, yeah, it looks like he volunteered.
They appear to say that he was A and they don’t appear to say that he had OL, which sounds like AWOL to me. If he simply wasn’t charged, well, that’s the whole point being made, isn’t it?
Clinton was not the only Democrat with a “service related disability” in the 2000 election. Al Gore did put on a uniform and he did go to Vietnam, but while thousands of grunts sweated out their year “in country” Al did not have to wait that long. Even though he was in a rear area where troopers seldom heard a shot fired in anger, Al couldn’t be troubled with spending an entire year with yahoos in an air-conditioned hooch. Some months before his scheduled rotation stateside Al was on a jet home and his honorable discharge papers were being expedited through Army Administration channels. After a curious interlude in Vanderbilt University as a divinity student Al was working as a political reporter at a Nashville newspaper, his political career clearly back on track.
Living in such a glass house Gore could hardly send rocks in Bush’s direction. But that was one of the reasons Vietnam was such a unpopular war…the privileged got out of it, the professionals punched their career tickets with it, and the hapless poor draftees paid the price for it. Kissenger pointedly observed in a recent TV interview Vietnam casualities were running about 500 a week (with perhaps 100+ KIA) when he came to the White House. Small wonder folks like Vice President Dan Quayle tried political tricks to stay safely stateside. The most pungent commentary on Quayle was that American men of a certain age group would need no explanation for Quayle’s actions and would accept no favorable interpretation of them. The ones I know feel the same way about Clinton, Bush, and Gore.
I agree that Bush seems to have skipped some of his obligations–but at least he did do one thing that Clinton/Gore didnt–he became a pilot.
Flying military jets isnt the easiest thing in the world to do,–it shows that you’ve got a good, solid head on your shoulders, good physical strength, and an ability to make very quick decisions under pressure.
Maybe, as is said, Gore spent his entire time as a rear echelon motherfucker. Point of fact, so did about 90% of the men who went to 'Nam, it takes about 9 support soldiers to keep on “grunt” on the line, thats been true damn near forever.
Be that as it may, Gore was about 10 thousand miles closer to the shit than GeeDubya was ever gonna get.
<< But that was one of the reasons Vietnam was such a unpopular war…the privileged got out of it, the professionals punched their career tickets with it, and the hapless poor draftees paid the price for it. >>
Yeah, it’s a good thing we’ve got past that stage, so that both rich and poor go together to Iraq, fighting side by … uh? what?
Hey, man, it’s the American Dream. Money can buy anything… enough money to hire enough good lawyers, you can even get away with murder, right, OJ? Certainly buying your way out of something like military service is pretty tame, when you get into the real big league stuff.
I was in the Air National Guard and knew one guy who did the same thing as Bush and it wasn’t a big deal.His job was transferring him to Germany for a year so he did a years worth of drills in a month and maintained his military obligation.When this story was first reported I remember hearing only once that Bush had done the same thing but it was never repeated.This is the kind of “reporting” you get when the reporter knows nothing about what he is reporting and has already decided how to slant the story.Also,the snotty comments about Bush being a pilot are typical.The AF doesn’t care who you are,they will fail ANYONE in flight school who doesn’t measure up.The Connecticut govenors son was given a pilot slot in our unit in the early 1980’s and came back very quickly.Between basic training and flight school,I bet Bush spent more time on active duty than Gore.I also read a report once that the fatality rate of F-102 pilots(Bushs plane) was higher than the average fatality rate of ground troops in Viet Nam.
I have often mulled over our singleminded pursuit of material wealth in the USA, and the many societal privledges that are essentially for sale in our nation. If the Monopoly game plays out and wealth becomes too concentrated we face the specter of oligarchy. Yet on the whole such a risk seems preferable to the schemes of societies that award members of a heredtary aristocracy or cronies of a political tyrant like Saddam. Still, I ask those of you too young to remember to consider the effect of compulsory military service…the draft…on rich and poor alike.
We forget today the power of a system that caused a rock star like Elvis to put his career on hold and a boxing champion like Mohammed Ali to have to surrender his title. The troops in Iraq may never make a Forbes list, but they are all volunteers. Would Bush or Gore ever had bothered with any form of military service if the draft did not loom in the background? What if press gangs swept up unwilling Mall rats and packed them off to fight in the Middle East? (Yeah, I know, we would lose, but I am trying to recapture an atmosphere here). I submit you cannot properly weigh the actions of Clinton, Bush, Gore, et al, without considering the effect of the Cold War draft. I know it bothered me to get those draft board letters every two weeks saying in so many words,“Tell us what you are doing and about your immediate plans”.
Not always. Sometimes hereditary aristocrats are raised to have a sense of responsibility. (The ones that really stink are typically the ones where the king or emperor, fearing the power of the nobility, decides to keep them on a tight leash in the capital, where they have nothing to do but spend money and fornicate like rabbits.)
The New York Times recently pointed out that ever since the “Contract On America” election, Congress has been, for the first time in recent history, not made up chiefly of veterans. Abolishing the Draft may have been a big mistake.
it seems to me that once a scandal is played out in the media they don’t want to revisit it with someone else. they shot their wad on draft dodging with Clinton. Clinton got roasted on the pot issue and Gore did not. oh yeah, anyone remember Gary Hart?
it seems to me that once a scandal is played out in the media they don’t want to revisit it with someone else. they shot their wad on draft dodging with Clinton. Clinton got roasted on the pot issue and Gore did not. oh yeah, anyone remember Gary Hart?
“I also read a report once that the fatality rate of F-102 pilots(Bushs plane) was higher than the average fatality rate of ground troops in Viet Nam.”
<<Bush didn’t report to his guard unit for an extended period — 17 months, by one account. It wasn’t considered that serious an offense at the time>>
wow. i really, really disagree. no matter what “the time”, this offense gets the average soldier gets a Bad Conduct Discharge. end of story. and no matter what “the time” this sort of offense signifies disloyalty and lack of commitment.
don’t get me wrong, i realize that in terms of “consequences”, the trump card is who you are.
just like blowing off a subpoena is not considered that serious. if you are [why even mention the name].
my real misgiving is what offenses like this say about you as a person.
leechles, welcome to the Straight Dope Message Boards, and happy new year!
As a moderator, I just want to point out that the prior post in this thread was from 2003. So, I don’t anticipate that people will respond to you. This is what we call a “zombie” thread (resurrected from many years ago), and one of the risks of posting to it is that most of the prior posters (if they’re still even around) are liable to consider it a very dead issue.