Bush should fire Ashcroft

Well, the thing was… when Escobedo was being tried, Ernesto Miranda was years away from committing the rape that lead to the “Miranda Warnings.” Escobedo’s case was, in fact, the first seminal case as far as advising people of their rights; it was quoted with approval, and expanded, by the Court a few years later in Miranda.

So at the time, the prosecutors had every right to be stunned, you see.

But you do raise a cogent argument here:

This is, as you say, a very simple principle. And a reasonable person could absolutely adopt it.

BUT - we started this argument not as a contest to show which approach is more reasonable, but for you to defend the proposition that Ashcroft should be fired because his actions were violative of the Constitution and his oath.

Where does your simple method, above, appear in either the Constitution or the oath of office?

In other words, you cannot excoriate Mr. Ashcroft for violating his oath by arguing a view contrary to the plain language of the Constitution while simultaneously applauding those who argue views contrary to the plain language of the Constitution. The Fifth Amendment was adopted in 1789 - its language had been unchanged for almost 200 years when Danny Escodebo came along. Yet after Escobedo, the law of the land was that the Constitution required warnings about the right to remain silent; before Escobedo, it did not. To make that change, someone had to argue for a different interpretive view. It’s not a violation of oath to do so.

You may certainly decry Mr. Ashcroft’s approach, and policies, as unwise, or even dangerous. You may rail as you like, painting him a threat to civil liberty. Those are certainly supportable views.

But when you say that he’s violated his oath, you tread into unsupportable territory. He is arguing his view of how the Constitution should be interpreted. As long as he has a good-faith belief that his view is the correct one, what we have is merely a disagreement, not a violation of any oaths.

If you don’t accept this still, then tell me: what about the prosecutors who argued against Mr. Williams, an Iowa man that gave a confession that violated his Sixth Amendment rights to counsel. The court was asked to exclude the evidence that resulted from that confession. The defense argued, quite correctly under the decisional law, that all evidence resulting from an illegal confession should be suppressed. No, said the prosecutors, we believe that since the police would have inevitably discovered the evidence, it should be admitted.

Now it’s the defense that’s shocked, pointing out that the Constitution says nothing about inevitable discovery, and that all the case law is on their side. Nothing in case law, in other words, supports the prosecutor’s argument.

Was the prosecutor in violation of his oath? How about the Supreme Court justices that ruled “inevitable discovery” would, from that moment on, be recognized as an exception to the exclusionary rule? Did they violate their oaths? After all, they broke your simple rule, since their decision cut against civil liberties, not in favor of them.

Let me know.

  • Rick

The whole thing hasn’t really got to the Supremes yet, so there’s no telling whether they would back that. But if there were any justices that did, it would probably be Scalia and Thomas

You can only take that argument so far. For example, if sawing off thieves hands was made into a punishment, the Government could try to skirt by the Eighth Amendment’s outlawing of cruel and unusual punishments by saying "Oh… sawing off somebody’s hands may be CRUEL, but is it really all that UNUSUAL? A lot of middle eastern countries, like our ally Saudi Arabia, do stuff like that. So it’s not cruel AND unusual at the same time, therefore it’s all right!!"

Oh, so you feel it in your heart of hearts, so that makes it true? Give me a break! :rolleyes:

If any justices were to vote against the enemy combatant disqualification as applied to US citizens it WOULD be Scalia and Thomas saying the US Constitution says all citizens have the right according to the words of the Constitution.

They would of course rule against Miranda, because there is nothing in the Constitution that says you must tell people their rights when you arrest them.

They usually are consistant, even if you reaaaaly want them not to be (so you can say how inconsistant they are).

But for the fact that this is a False Analogy, and an example of the Slippery Slope, you might have something.

Why does your analogy fail?

There are several areas in which it is inapposite. We have jumped from discussing an argument offered by the Attorney General, and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, authorized by an act of Congress and signed into law by the President, to discussing a hypothetical punishment offered by “the government,” without any indication of which branch, or branches, might be involved. The repulsive nature of the outcome invites the reader to ignore those details and support the conclusion.

But I’ll assume you meant to draw an exact analogy: that Congress had authorized hand amputation as a punishment under federal law, and the President had signed it into law.

But the scenario is unlikely in the extreme, since there is extant case law concerning cruel and unusual punishment.

To survive constitutional challenge, a punishment must not be "inhuman treatment,’’ and ‘’…exercised within the limits of civilized standards.’’

In Wilkerson v. Utah, an 1878 case, the Court said:

So your analogy fails here: the Court has already spoken on the issue. Even though a law passed by Congress and signed by the President enjoys a presumption of constitutionality, it seems clear that the hand-cutting law you envision would clearly fail.

In light of this precedent, it would be fair to say that an Attorney General causing this law to be enforced was derelict in his oath.

No such precedent exists for the circumstances we’re discussing, though, does it?

  • Rick

The similarities are purely this: The outcome is so repulsive that anyone with any concern for the constitution should take pause. If denying somebody the right to a trial, and the right to legal counsel, and holding them incommunicado for an indefinite duration does not bring shock to the conscience of anyone who ostensibly is upholding the Constitution, then I have no idea what the hell does.

ok, Blalron - you’re the attorney for José Padilla. It’s oral argument time at the Supreme Court. Justice Rehnquist asks you, “What if Mr. Padilla had, memorized, the only numeric codes necessary to detonate nuclear devices in twelve major U.S. cities polanted by his terror network, and his attorney was known to be associated with that terror network. Would the government be justified in holding him incommunicado under those circumstances?”

Until the government can prove that Mr. Padilla “had, memorized, the only numeric codes necessary to detonate nuclear devices in twelve major U.S. cities planted by his terror network, and his attorney was known to be associated with that terror network.”, the right of Habeus Corpus stands.

Remember: innocent until proven guilty, not until thought guilty (by nimrods like Ashcroft).

How would the government prove this?

Trial? Meaning he gets to talk to his lawyer beforehand?

No. But I suppose you could justify getting his attorney thrown off the case and appointing a new one.

But, Blalron, where in the Constitution do you draw the idea that the government can remove an accused’s attorney and substitute one of its choice?

The answer, of course, is that it’s an excellent and reasonable solution, and a person who argued for it would not be violating any oath to protect and defend the Constitution, even if it didn’t appear therein.

Mr. Ashcroft believes that these measures are appropriate and constitutional. You do not. That’s certainly the basis for disagreement. It’s even a basis to argue he should be fired. But it’s not a basis to conclude he has violated his oath, if he, in good faith, believes he’s on solid constitutional ground.

  • Rick

I think this quote about the Itelligence and Surveilance Act from the column by Michael Kirland, UPI legal correspondent, is what worries most of us.

“As long as the Bush administration and future administrations recognize the supremacy of the courts, the United States has a decent chance of retaining a government of law, not a government of men.”

Sounds like we are depending on the good intentions of GW, Ashcroft and all future executive dept. officials.

Of course that has always been true and that’s why checks and balances with divided power among the brances of government is important. And also that’s why things need to be done out in the open except rarely under the most extreme circumstances.

As you suggest, it’s not a new issue.

“John MArshall has made his decision. Now let him enforce it.”

  • Rick