From this ABC News article:
As far as I’m aware, no EU member country has complained about Mr Bush’s remarks.
Well, sorry but this is interference.
‘Freedom of Speech’ would be a public statement like:’ I believe Turkey being part of the EU would be a good thing’.
Calling up Rassmussen (and who else?) is not a statement, it’s called lobbying or, coming from the president of the US, could even be called pressuring.
The discussion of the First Amendment here is spurious.
There is a large difference between stating an opinion and announcing you are going to do something. Were I , purely hypothetically, to announce that I was going to assasinate the President. I would be committing an offence. I don’t think that the First Amendmant would protect me.
Why yes, your analogy is perfectly on point. :rolleyes:
What, exactly, is Bush going to do to get Turkey into the EU? Express his opinion to the members of the EU that Turkey should be admitted.
And that’s exactly what he has done. I haven’t seen any threats, overt or covert, that the US will invade Denmark if Turkey is not admitted, that the U.S. will no longer allow German goods to be sold in the U.S. until Germany is admitted, etc., etc.
The U.S. thinks it would be in the U.S.'s interest to have Turkey be a member of the EU. The U.S. recognizes that it cannot make Turkey a member of the EU by fiat. Accordingly, the US does the one thing it can do - lobby the people who can make Turkey a member of the EU a member of the EU.
Let’s face it - what is going on is that the Bush is urging its allies in Western Europe to change their foreign policy in one regard.
Germany and France, as examples, are urging Bush to change his foreign policy in one regard - concerning Iraq.
If Germany and France have the “right” to try to influence the U.S.'s foreign policy, why doesn’t the U.S. have the same “right”?
Sua
Sua,
Admitting Turkey to the EU is domestic policy as far as the members of the EU are concerned; for example, one of many consequences of a country joining is that any of its citizens can go to any other member country and work, with no visa or time limit.
Have any official tail-feathers been ruffled? This whole thing seems perfectly ordinary.
And I still say Turkey is under consideration. 
There were definitely a few feathers ruffled. I’m watching Euronews at the moment, and the coverage of the summit yesterday is focused on how the EU is standing up to US pressure by refusing to admit Turkey straightaway.
ruadh, that’s interesting and I hadn’t heard about it, were they complaining about Bush interfering in EU domestic affairs?
And while the US President is the most powerful man on earth, I fail to see how making a couple phone calls and putting a good word in for Turkey is “pressure.” What did Bush threaten to do when the EU refuses to admit Turkey straightaway?
I can imagine that the many people/politicians in the EU who are largely pro-UN, and have been very concerned about the current US administration’s lack of enthusiasm for signing up to various international protocols - the reason usually given that the UN ‘has no right to interfere’ in US domestic affairs - might see this as somewhat hypocritical. YMMV. Personally, I don’t give a shite.
Well, I disagree, but we can move past it without having to agree. There have been innumerable instances where European countries have attempted to influence domestic U.S. policy, from statements decrying the death penalty, or attempts to have the U.S. adopt European accounting standards, to opposition to U.S. farm subsidies.
And I say, more power to the Europeans. And more power to the U.S. in attempting to influence European policy, whether we classify it as foreign or domestic.
Sua
I don’t dispute any of that, and I didn’t make any comment about whether Bush is right to say what he did (I just said that the merits are open to debate). I wanted to point out that the EU is different from NAFTA. As a member, Turkey will get to vote in binding decisions that affect all EU countries regarding things like employment law or consumer standards. EU law and policy affects the lives of every person in the union in many ways every day. Foreign policy it certainly is not.
Fair enough. I don’t really give a shite, either.
And I encourage Europeans to criticize US domestic policy, we have nothing to fear from opinions.
Today’s updates include these:
Turkey’s EU dismay.
Thorny issues for the EU (this one very briefly mentions the scope of EU members’ opposition to Turkey).
Cyprus talks collapse.
There shouldn’t be any disagreement about whether opposition to Turkey’s admission to the EU is a domestic or international matter. It’s obviously a domestic concern if any Turkish citizen has free access to all other member countries and right of residency, work and social benefits, as would be the case. The benefits of Turkish membership are not only strategic ones, but that’s obviously the main consideration.
Incidentally, this story also mentioned Greek support for Turkey’s EU membership application following the Turkish election last month.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/12/11/summit.oakley/index.html
Chris Patten [referring to the USA]: “Turkey’s friends should be more judicious. Most of us have lost count of the numbers of times American officials have offered Turkey membership of the EU. I sometimes think that perhaps we should offer Mexico membership of the United States.”
I guess that means Bush is just carrying out normal US relations.
That would be fine with me, the more the merrier. I’m not sure Mexico would be too thrilled about it, though.
>> I’m not sure Mexico would be too thrilled about it, though
Yeah, it’s no fun if you can freely cross the border without having to evade the vigilantes and the border patrol ^_*
Just because Mexicans come here to work doesn’t mean that they wish Mexico was part of America. Many illegals just come up here to work, save up some money, and then go back home. That said, I’m sure there are a lot of Mexicans who do wish they were American, and many of them are probably living in the US right now.
If Mexico wanted to become a US state, I imagine they would have officially said something by now.
Fair enough. Chris Patten has the right to be annoyed at Dubya.
Everybody’s happy.
Sua
Not to highjack this thread but it would be interesting to discuss the effects if the Mexican states were to join the USA. I believe Mexico has 32 states and a population of a bit over 100 million. I do not think there’s any way the US would admit all those states and people into the Union because most would feel threatened. Sort of like Europe with Turkey, if you get my drift.
Even so, Patten didn’t look annoyed when I saw him making that comment on the news tonight. And I’m not happy, Sua - I’m still smarting* over that rolleyes ;).
*not really