Bush's Speech Tonight: What Didja Think?

[tagos]

@Pochacco

I fear that what we’re doing here is manufacturing another South Vietnam. We’re creating a regime that lacks the ability to enforce its own laws or even defend itself. Such a regime will never be able to excite patriotic feeling among its citizens. I suspect that however well-intentioned this attempt is, the resulting government will never be perceived as anything more than an American puppet. And as the months drag on the Iraqis who actually are interested in “fighting for their own country” will choose do so in opposition to the compromised interim regime.

I fear you’ve hit the nail on the head with that analogy. I can’t see any govt supported by the occupiers being granted enough legitimacy in the public eye to function like a normal democratic state.

[ccwaterback]

The newly formed Iraqi government is going to invite us to their inauguration party to be held at Little Big Horn, Iraq.

[Mr.Svinlesha]

Sam:

I fully expect that there will be at least 50,000 American troops in Iraq ten years from now.

From your mouth to God’s ear.

After all, that’s the real reason behind this little exercise in imperial gymnastics, is it not?

• As long as the Iraqis are agreeable, this is a good thing. Being able to base a large contingent of U.S. troops in a friendly middle-eastern country if of great strategic advantage in the war on terror. The key is ‘friendly’, though.*

Hm.

The very large garrison we used to have in ever-so-friendly Saudi Arabia sure didn’t help much, did it?

What makes you think this one will?

• And, the U.S. has long gone past repairing war damage, and is now spending tens of billions of dollars rebuilding Iraq’s neglected infrastructure and essentially giving Iraq a leg up.*

Cite?

[iamme99]

You know, if Bush winds up jobless in November, he might want to try and run for new President of Iraq in January. Should be an easy race in the new democracy. After all, I’ve heard a number of conservatives saying that Iraqi’s love Bush for freeing them from the tyranny of Saddam, right?

[ccwaterback]

You guys are so negative. Can’t you picture the warring factions of Iraq doing the minuet together in the middle of the street on June 30th? :dubious:

[Rashak_Mani]

Funny I don’t see Iraqi infighting as the worse problem… but the fact that so many have to gain from failure there:

• Any inside faction that feels they got less power than they deserved.
  (Includes Kurds who might like to see “Iraq” collapse and get their own country)

• Arab extremists of all colors who would like to see the USA humiliated.

• Other arab countries who don’t want a strong or healthy Iraq. Or a good precedent for invasion.

• Even western countries might see the collapse of Iraq as a slap on pre-emption and US muscle flexing as good.

• Finally terrorists who don’t want those easy US targets leaving.

  This is IF AND ONLY IF Iraqis manage to get things together.

  As for Bush’s speech. Any speech putting Iraq and War on Terror together sounds so fake to me. Once again a lot of reassurances but little facts.

[Hellestal]

@Sam Stone

Iraq is not that poor. Iraq is not Afghanistan. Iraq has a per-capita income of between 1500 and 2500 dollars. That is on par with countries like Egypt and Iran, or maybe a little better. And that’s after decades of mismanagement by Saddam and two very expensive wars. Had the Iraqis had better government, they could be the model for the Middle East.

Which, unfortunately, didn’t happen. If wishes were fishes and all…

What happened was that their resources were wasted, and any possibility of the establishment of a economically advanced nation was squandered. I can appreciate that you would like to see a peaceful Iraq. I’d like to see it too, but what I don’t see is any real possibility of that happening. Far too much of the country has been down in the dirt for far too long for us to simply step in and solve the problem with a little Fairy Dust of Democracy.

I notice also that the CIA World Fact Handbook gives per capita income of Iraq at $2400, Egypt at $4000, and Iran at $6,800. That is, Egypt’s per capita income is more than 50% greater than Iraq’s, and Iran’s is more than twice Iraq’s. Iraq’s per capita productivity is in no way on par with those other countries. Yes, the country has oil, but the people, in my honest great debates opinion, will end up fighting over it.

I can’t magically prove this, though, so we’ll just have to wait and see. I somehow missed the post the first time round, but I think Pochacco gave an excellent explanation, so I don’t have too much more to say.

[Tamerlane]

@Stricker van Gogh

I notice also that the CIA World Fact Handbook gives per capita income of Iraq at $2400, Egypt at $4000, and Iran at $6,800. That is, Egypt’s per capita income is more than 50% greater than Iraq’s, and Iran’s is more than twice Iraq’s. Iraq’s per capita productivity is in no way on par with those other countries. Yes, the country has oil, but the people, in my honest great debates opinion, will end up fighting over it.

This article claims the IMF estimates current per capita GDP at $566, down from ~$3,600 in the 1980’s. However I am not sure if they are using the same PPP method used by the CIA.

Another enemy looms -- Iraq debt / $120 billion owed; 9 times nation's...

• Tamerlane

[iamme99]

Think you could do better as George Bush’s speechwriter? Then go to the link below and put together your own speech, using phrases and words he has already spoken.

Tip: Click on the LOAD button for a selection of speeches already completed.

Have fun!

Link

[Reeder]

Iraq is not that poor. Iraq is not Afghanistan. Iraq has a per-capita income of between 1500 and 2500 dollars.

Surely you mean they had that kind of income before we invaded. If you mean that they now make that much money…cite?

[Sam_Stone]

Apparently Iraq’s GDP figures are all over the map. I used numbers from the World Bank. The IMF has a different number, and the CIA factbook has a third.

The essential point, which is that Iraq is starting with a reasonably well educated population and a better infrastructure than Afghanistan’s remains unchanged.

ccwaterback said:

You guys are so negative. Can’t you picture the warring factions of Iraq doing the minuet together in the middle of the street on June 30th?

“Warring Factions”? Which warring factions would those be?

[elucidator]

@Sam Stone

…The essential point, which is that Iraq is starting with a reasonably well educated population and a better infrastructure than Afghanistan’s remains unchanged…

Well, yes. Upper Volta likely has a better infrastructure than Afghanistan. On the one hand, you have a patient infected with AIDS, tuberculosis, rickets, malaria, and black water fever. On the other, a corpse. Indeed, the first patient is much healthier. No question about that, Sam.

“Warring Factions”? Which warring factions would those be?

Not much, so far. The Leader, in another deft diplomatic manuever, has largely unified the Iraqi people around a central goal: getting rid of us. Perhaps this unity will continue after we are gone, should that happy day ever actually arrive. Perhaps.

[capacitor]

Bush should have said all that a year ago, and save the flight on a carrier and the ‘Mission Accomplished’ stunts until after Iraq got a democracy working. He wouldn’t have one-tenth of the grief and anger directed at him that he currently has.