Business security vs home security (legally)

Factual Questions
1

The best I could do on a search was a thread from 4 years ago when everyone was posting under “guest”, which half answered my question - sort of.

Everyone knows that some types of businesses, especially bars and other concert-like events employ people who will grab whoever they think is a criminal or trouble maker and physically toss them off the property.

I’ve also read in numerous places about how easily you can loose everything you have to litigation or even get arrested yourself if you try to do this to someone tresspassing on your own private property. Hell, apparently a theif can sprain his ankle breaking into your house, sue you (and win), when you aren’t even there.

The gist seems to be that you can only get physical with someone who’s trying to kill/seriously hurt you on your property, and anything less than that you’re supposed to call the cops. If you try and physically remove someone from your house you’re going to jail for assault (assuming they choose to press charges).

So two questions:

  1. Am I close to right on the second part? I know it varies by location, but is it not a good idea legally to forcibly do anything to a person on your property (or anywhere else) unless your life is in danger?

  2. How does this contrast to private business establishments who crack skulls and toss people every night for far less serious acts? Is it legal (strictly speaking)? I’ve heard bouncers talk about being careful not to leave marks on people so there’s no evidence, but any cop knows what they do… so are the laws different or do the authorities just look the other way since private security guards help keep these petty scuffles out of their hair on the busy nights?

2

Hmmm, nobody has a guess?

Perhaps a shortened version (I tend to be too wordy at times):

Why is it that a person can work (or volunteer) for celebrities, concerts, bars, railroads, and other non-law enforcement jobs and get away with clear-cut assault, while that same person will get arrested for trying to defend his person or private property when he takes the exact same steps? Is it law or just policy?

3

I don’t see your distinction. If someone trips in your house they can sue you as you point out, but that’s equally true in a business. You can hire a bouncer to control who gets into a club, and you can hire a guard to control who gets in your house.

Please clarify.

4

You’re making a distinction that isn’t there; businesses operate under the same or greater risk of lawsuit as an individual does. Don’t those sites you’re reading also mention some ‘guy slips on ice, sues company for $139432754325324’ cases too? A lot of those fears are overblown; while there is always some risk, forcibly removing someone from your property generally is not a big deal as long as you’re complying with the laws in force.

I’m also not aware of too many places that employ “people who will grab whoever they think is a criminal or trouble maker and physically toss them off the property”; in general, bouncers and security guards will verbally warn someone and only use force if the person refuses to go (or if the person is already using physical force).

5

Okay, more detail…

The grabbing and tossing part: You may have seen people for example trying to take pictures or video of a concert - even a small one. Once they’re spotted, they’ll have multiple security people run up, rip the camera from the person’s hand, and escort them (roughly) off the property - no questions asked. I’ve seen very large men do this to a teenaged girl.

Or drunken uknown guy contially hits on uninterested regular female customer of bar X. She tells the boucers and he’s told to get out, starts asking as to why, and is then put in a choke hold and tossed out the door. First is an example of thinking someone’s a criminal (probably true), second example of someone thought of as a trouble maker. Both happen every day.

I think part of my confusion lies in some of the sources I read; they are self-defence orientated, and are chock full of examples of when you’re not justified to use force, and how the law would respond unfavorably to you unless you do everything in your power to basically run away… considering you as part of the problem since everyone, including the real aggresor, will claim “self-defence” in court. Also seeing numerous COPS episodes where a husband (or any other male) admits to police that he simply grabbed a female’s wrist; the cuffs always get slapped on him within seconds.

The distinction part: If I can be convicted of assault for shoving some nosey neighbor off my lawn -one time- who wants to borrow all my tools every day and won’t take “no” for an answer, how is it that I can then go to my night job and slap a hammer lock on half a dozen different guys every night and drag them out the door (with a few stomps for good measure) for simply argueing with me when I ask them to leave… consequence-free?

Here’s where I want the help: On a “fight-by-fight” basis, do security guards end up in court as often as home-owners or people walking down the street? It appears as though you can get away with man-handling people (who aren’t posing much of a danger) much easier on someone else’s property than you can tackle the guy from down the street when he walks into your yard to pick apples off your tree and says he’ll kill ya if you get in his way. I’d actually like someone to tell me I’m all wet as my interpretation of the the law seems very unfair - BUT - I’d the actual reasons for it.

6

A competent bouncer knows what the rules are.

And they know more than that. I’ve seen one just cruise by, “put in an appearance”, and the troublemaker settled down without even obviously looking at him.

7

I haven’t worked in a business where bouncers are employed. But I have owned several businesses. And Riboflavin is right; businesses are held to a much higher standard both directly by the law, and indirectly in that what a jury will award a complaintent is typically higher. For example, if a person is roughed up at a large concert, the Arena has some deep pockets to sue, but if someone is roughed up by you for trespassing on your property, it’s not as likely you’ll ever see a lawsuit as you just don’t have as much for them to try and take away from you.

Also, though there are abuses by bouncers, my experiences with the situations you’ve described (patron taking unallowed photos, patron making unwanted advances at other patron) have all been very orderly and non-violent, no choke holds and being thrown out of doors.

Finally, I should point out that if your neighbors only sin is to keep bugging you to borrow tools, you really shouldn’t be “shoving” him.

8

Another thing could be that concert ticket generally have conditions imposed on them and the management reserves the right to force you to leave if you break those conditions.

9

As usual, the specifics of the laws involved vary widely from location to location, as do the specifics of what ‘reasonable’ in those laws. IANAL, TINLA, RTLS, and so on.

Actually, it was the ‘grab whoever they think is a criminal or trouble maker and physically toss them off the property’ part, and neither of your examples fit that. In the first case, it’s not just that they think someone is a criminal, it’s that the person has violated the agreement they entered into by using the ticket and is being removed as a trespasser. In your second example, they are physically removing the person from the property because that person refused to leave after having been told to leave, they’re not just grabbing him because he might be a troublemaker.

So, both of your examples involve a person who has been told to leave the permises or that they’re only being allowed to enter under certain conditions and has refused to or violated the conditions under which they are allowed entry. Both involve a person committing specific actions before the security guard is using any force at all on them, and neither involves the use of force on the basis of that the guard thinks the person might do like you seem to believe, but on their taking certain actions.

Generally, the female in a domestic violence situation is entitled to be on the property and thus is not either trespassing or committing an assault which would qualify the grab as self-defense.

If your ‘no’ for an answer includes ‘get off of my property’ then you’re generally justified in removing him from your property as a trespasser. You can’t, however, just slug him without making it clear that he is not welcome on your property. You also generally can do more if he’s inside of your house or fence than if he’s in an open area - that’s one difference between a bouncer and you.

Do you have some kind of specific incident in mind? Your examples keep getting wierder, I find the psycho apple-picker in your yard just a bit off.

Since you haven’t even disclosed a location, there’s no way for anyone to know what law you’re calling unfair - the specifics of trespassing laws vary from location to location. You’re also making a comparison between evicting a trespasser from inside of a building and from on a lawn, which are often going to be treated differently.

10

Ooops - on the one quote with no text under it: Self-defense off of your own property is a whole different ball of wax than evicting a trespasser from your own property. If you’re comparing ‘what can I do if someone punches me’ with ‘what can I do if someone refuses to leave my bar after I’ve told them to’, it’s really apples and oranges. (“Your own property” includes ‘property you’re acting as agent of the owner on’ in the above.)