But is it proper English?

Factual Questions
21

Can you start a sentence with “but”? The prescriptivists would say “no”, because there is a prescriptive rule which says that a sentence cannot be started with a conjunction. The descriptivists would say “yes”, because ordinary English speakers start sentences with “and” or “but” all the time. I’d say that if you’re writing formal English it would be better to avoid starting sentences with conjunctions, since many people who read formal English (anything published, business letters and reports, etc.) are sensitive to violations of prescriptive grammar rules. In informal written English, who cares about the rules if you make yourself understood?

Postscript: two prescriptive rules I hate: the no-split-infinitives rule and the no-prepositions-at-the-end-of-the-sentence rule.

One prescriptive rule I love: the no-dangling-participles rule.

22

As someone else pointed out, you can start a sentence with whatever the heck word you want in informal writing.

Someone else pointed out the difference between prescriptive and descriptive grammar.

So. When you write your dissertation, I suggest you do not begin any sentences with and. Ditto for the introduction letter when you apply for your first job. In your movie reviews, do whatever you want. If you need a role model, pick up a copy of the Modern Library’s edition of The Collected Works of Dorothy Parker-- the new one, with the selections from “Constant Reader.”

But. No matter what anyone says, or how informal your tone when you write, ALWAYS follow the rules of punctuation. It is writing, after all, and no matter how “conversational,” the affect of conversation is still an affect, an illusion.

In other words, keep the bloody commas INSIDE THE QUOTATION MARKS.

Grrrr.

–Rowan

23

But we digress…

24

It does not make it a run-on sentence. It makes it a sentence fragment, the exact opposite. A run on sentence is of the form “We must not write run-on sentences they sound stupid”.

25

Really? I could have sworn they were run on sentences. Oh, well. Live and learn! I’m still not bad for a Math/CS major.

BTW Opus, the Vietnamese dictionary I have considers the two-letter combinations separately only when they begin a word. For example, “nguyen” comes after “nui”, because ‘ng’ comes after ‘n’. When they are at the end of a word or at the beginning of a second “morpheme” of the word, they are alphabatized as if they were two separate letters. (I can’t think of a good example right now, but “non nguyen” would come before “non nui”, if it were a word that is.) That inconsistency bugs the heck out of me. The Vietnamese I know also have trouble with it.

26

Well, load your gun then Eris.

If a person is not going to quote the sentence they are talking about but expect us to go look for it on the net buried in an article somewhere [And of which sentences they speak we shall not know exactly], I’d say use the word BUT just about anywhere.

27

Oh fer chrissakes…

From the Concise Oxford English Dictionary, Ninth Edition:

but*conj., prep.,adv.,pron.,n.,& v.*● conj.1anevertheless, however (tried hard but did not succeed; I am old, but I am not weak)b on the other hand; on the contrary (I am old but you are young) 2 (prec. by can etc.; in neg. or interrog.) except, other than, otherwise than (cannot choose but do it; what could we do but run?). 3 without the result that (it never rains but it pours). 4 prefixing an interruption to the speaker’s train of thought (the weather is ideal - but is that cloud on the horizon?). ● prep. except; apart from; other than (everyone wnet but me; nothing but trouble). ●adv. 1 only; no more than;only just (we can but try; is but a child; had but arrived; did it but once). 2 introducing emphatic repetition; definitely (wanted to see nobody, but nobody). 3 Austral., NZ, & Sc. though, however (didn’t like it, but). ● rel. pron. who not; that not (there is not a man but feels pity). ● n. an objection (ifs and buts). ● v.tr.(in phr. but me no buts) do not raise objections.
□ but for without the help or hindrance etc. of (but for you I’d be rich by now). but one(or two etc.) excluding one (or two etc.) from the number (next door but one; last but one). but that(prec. by neg.)that (I don’t deny but that it’s true). but that(or colloq. what)other than that; except that (who knows but that it is true?). but then (or yet) however, on the other hand (I won, but then the others were beginners).
[Old English be-ūtan, būtan, būta ‘outside, without’]

Ok, that’s the last time I do that with all the italics etc.

My point is, it’s not possible to construct a grammatically correct sentence starting with “but” unless it’s an artificial construction like those you used to lose marks for in English class:

“But” is a word with which you are not supposed to begin sentences.

The only possible exception as noted above is the use of “but” is as a preposition combined with “for”:

But for this MB, I’d get a lot of work done.

This sounds awkward and is not used very frequently in modern English.

Bleh.

28

Eris:

Get a grip. English is highly idiomatic.

I am an editor and so feel I have some right to address this.

Beginning a sentence with “and” or “but” is no big deal, unless you do it so often that it distracts the reader. I repeat, English is highly idiomatic.

To me, there are only two hard-and-fast rules of English: be clear, and don’t let it be clunky.

Relax, already.

And when in doubt, consult Evans and Evans, “A Dictionary of Contemporary American Usage.” The OED is a great source, but it is British English. Get a grip.

29

I think “but” could be considered a conjunctive adverb in this case, like “however” or “therefore”. It would then be okay to start a sentence with it.

BTW:
Rivkah Maccabi: “In other words, keep the bloody commas INSIDE THE QUOTATION MARKS.”

Commas do not always belong inside the quotation marks, i.e.

Correct: I just heard Stravinsky’s “The Rite of Spring”, which was conducted by Bernstein.

Incorrect: I just heard Stravinsky’s “The Rite of Spring,” which was conducted by Bernstein.

Any challengers?

30

Actually, I was taught that a sentece can be started with a “but” as long as it is followed with a comma. e.g. But, I do not think that she is really coming.
In the example, the “but” is used in the same way that a “however” would be used. e.g. However, I do not think that she is really coming.
See, it works just fine. :wink:

tipi :

31

You’re also not supposed to end a sentence with a preposition. However, I have heard of an instance where someone ended a sentence with five prepositions.

Seems a little kid was waiting for his mother to bring up a bedtime book and tuck him in for the night. She brought up a book he didn’t like and he asked her, “What did you bring that book that I don’t want to be read to out of up for?”

Oh, and you can begin a sentence with any word you wish. Chances are your writing is literate and understandable. This, in my opinion, entitles you to break the rules, especially if the writing is of a casual sort. Getting your point across + being true to style overrides stuffy, boring and archaic rules. And this from an ex-editor.

The Dave-Guy
“since my daughter’s only half-Jewish, can she go in up to her knees?” J.H. Marx

32

There is a great book, ‘A manual of Email style’ I think it was. Explains what you can and can’t do. About how ‘and’ is acceptable to start a sentence with now. Just cause when we were kids we were taught not to do that doesn’t mean it’s not acceptable.

Eris, thanks for the quote, but I meant the quote of which lines starting with BUT that EC was referring to in that initial question.

It’s also quite acceptable to finish a sentence with a preposition according to the book. After all, don’t sales people almost always say, ‘What are you looking for?’ Rather than, ‘For what are you Looking,’ which would sound absurd.

33

This thread sure is helping make the “for” case over on the Esperanto thread. :wink:

34

pathunt posted:

However, pathunt’s profile gives a location of KY which, unfortunately, places the example in error. The example would be correct on the eastern edge of the pond, where the Brits follow those rules. Over here, in the colonies, however the reverse is true. This aggravates me because I would prefer pathunt’s usage, but in the U.S., style dictates that periods and commas are ALWAYS included within the quotation marks, however stupid that may seem.

Tom~

35

As an editor, I just had to weigh in on this subject.

As several people have already pointed out, the word “but” is used as a conjunction. Therefore, strictly speaking, its job is to link two independent clauses, not to begin a new sentence.

Obviously, in practical terms, when you begin a sentence with “but,” your reader can presumably figure out that you are now advancing a new idea that is somewhat contrary to the the idea in the previous sentence. In other words, you are not committing a really harmful error, which is one that leads to confusion on the part of the reader.

But–you should realize that you are breaking a rule. Therefore, you should only do it sparingly, as a means of emphasis (as I just did in this paragraph).

If your editor is objecting, then you should go back and see whether you are overusing this sentence construction. There are several other words that would serve your need as well (however, unfortunately, nonetheless, nevertheless). Not only would they add variety; they are also more flexibil, because you can place them at different points in the sentence.

For example: “I wanted to go for a walk, but it was raining.” It would be foolish to break this up into two sentence like this: “I wanted to go for a walk. But it was raining.” The second sentence just isn’t important enough to deserve breaking the rule. Why the extra emphasis?

However, if you’ve just used two or three sentence with the word “but,” and you’re looking to break the monotony, you could try:
“I wanted to go for a walk. However, it was, however, raining” or “It was raining, however” or “It was, however, raining.”

This is one of those rules like not using parallel fifths in music: if you do it, it doesn’t really hurt, but if you avoid it, you may find yourself coming up with something much better and more interesting.

36

quote:

  Commas do not always belong inside the quotation marks, i.e.

  Correct: I just heard Stravinsky's "The Rite of Spring", which was conducted by Bernstein.

  Incorrect: I just heard Stravinsky's "The Rite of Spring," which was conducted by Bernstein.
  However, pathunt's profile gives a location of KY which, unfortunately, places the example in error. The example would be correct on the eastern edge of the pond, where the Brits follow those rules. Over here, in the colonies, however the reverse is true. This aggravates me because I would prefer pathunt's usage, but in the U.S., style dictates that periods and commas are ALWAYS included within the quotation marks, however stupid that may seem.

                     ------------------
                     Tom~

Umm, thanks for defending my position Tom, but I’m disappointed-- why don’t you like the American usage? ::sniff::

–Rowan

37

Because I think the comma or period should set off the body of text (either as breaking point for a breath or as a closure to a conceptual point) while the quotation marks should set off a quote (or slang or words used ironically). We are not even consistent in our usage: quotes go outside commas and periods; quotes go inside colons and semi-colons; quotes go inside and outside of exclamation points and question marks depending on whether the quotation (or ironic usage) is the entire exclaimed or questioned phrase or is simply the last phrase in a longer sentence. Even realizing that language tends to not follow hard and fast rules of logic, I find the U.S. rules on quotes are a bit irrational.

Being a rule-follower at heart, I will follow the current (U.S.) convention, but I don’t have to like it.
(It isn’t personal, Rowan.)

Tom~

38

Hmmm…

I didn’t realize that the quote/comma thing had different rules here in the US as they do in merry ole England. I’ve just been going by the punctuation rules in the appendix of my Webster’s. I think I prefer the way I’ve been doing it, and will continue to do so. It doesn’t really hurt anything to do it that way, does it?

39

To go off topic, someone mentioned earlier that when people use “The thing of it…”. Well yes its incorrect, but its an idiom =). Idioms dont make sense at all. Like: “Get off my back!” Anyway, it is the idioms that give color to language, and in an informal setting does it matter? I personally wouldn’t use it if i were doing a presentation, but as others have said, if you get your point across does it matter?

40

Perhaps the prescriptive vs. idiomatic struggle might be seen from a different perspective ? Out here in the Pacific, with dozens of English creoles and pidgins, written English is understood by all, while spoken lingo ain’t.

It seems a losing battle to keep the two separate in English since it has become a lingua franca for a variety of cultures, and purposes - not to mention the proclivity to use informal, spoken styles in writing, whether you’re Sam Clemens or a copywriter.

Semantics, if you believe N.Chomsky, would likely reflect the sociological group - increasingly broad in the case of English users. Very separate spoken and written forms coexist in Chinese and Arabic (although the latter uses an alphabet, and is more comparable). They may even be diverging, while English is converging.

But hey, entropy rules, OK ? (BTW, isn’t punctuation within quotes or parentheses a bit like shutting down your computer without closing out Windows ?)