QuickSilver, you misunderstood Anaamika and attacked her for no reason.
I could say “a meteor striking the planet and eliminating all life is worse than a serial killer” but that doesn’t mean I am saying the meteor intends to do more evil than the killer.
It just means that the meteor actually does more damage than the serial killer.
Just as it is probable (or at least easily arguable) that organized religion has done more damage throughout history than organized crime.
And a bagel is like a doughnut.
OR, at least in our day and age tend to do some good. I hope we don’t disagree about that. OC doesn’t build hospitals, offer shelter to the homeless, feed the hungry, rescue troubled youth. OC may not advocate abstinence but neither do they extole the virtues of safe sex. In fact they take a pretty active interest in prostitution and skin bars. Or is your position that there is nothing wrong with the sex industry that a good OC can’t fix? (Not that I’m looking for OR to be of much help in this area either.) I can go on but I think you get my drift.
I’m just tired of my fellow atheist laying all the trouble and woe in the world at the feet of OR. There is plenty of blame to spread around and it’s disingenuous to accuse of religion (the faithful specifically) of all that’s wrong with this world.
YMMV.
This is very strained and somewhat silly. The Church certainly isn’t advocating safe sex, either! You have jumped to a conclusion re: my POV on OC and the sex industry–seeing as how I don’t even like porn, this is funny to me.
[QUOTE}I’m just tired of my fellow atheist laying all the trouble and woe in the world at the feet of OR. There is plenty of blame to spread around and it’s disingenuous to accuse of religion (the faithful specifically) of all that’s wrong with this world.
YMMV.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you here-- no one group or institution is to blame for the woes of the world…although I don’t really see many atheists pinning all the world’s evils unto OR. I think some of them are snarky about OR, because they have been hurt by it. Fair enough.
Yes, many charitable things are done by religious organizations every day–and thank God (no pun intended!).
That does not preclude the fact that OR is like OC in that it CAN be self-serving, dedicated to it’s own future and not the welfare of its individual adherents, and it CAN do great harm. It differs from OC in that sometimes, OR can do great good.
Clearer?
You could also argue that OR is the “opiate of the masses”, and that if it wasn’t for OR the masses would fight back against abuses.
You can’t tell me you have never noticed how many religions tell people to wait for a reward in the afterlife, and that being poor and suffering during their mortal life doesn’t matter (or is actually a good thing, as they will be first in the kingdom of heaven).
:smack:
Yeah, my train of thought derailed on that whole sex related thing. Not sure what the hell that was all about.
But the self-serving characterization above describes every human institution that’s ever existed. OR isn’t unique in developing a self preservation mechanism.
You were saying, eleanorigby… 
Nightime, the masses are asses. 
I’m not an athiest, and I don’t pin all the world’s evils on organized religion.
I do, however, think that you attacked Anaamika for no reason, and that it is quite likely that organized religion, on the whole, has been worse than organized crime.
No. 
But hey, Anaamika, congratulations on the pitting, kiddo!
Two completely pointless hijacks, and I apologize for them.
1)Somebody pitted Anaamika? Never thought that was possible.
2)I’m a little tired and it took me a while to figure out that OC in this thread did not refer to the fox television show. The thread makes slightly more sense now.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled whatever the krunk this is.
No, that would be the part where the church actually lies about the effectiveness of condoms, and in some cases their priests are claiming that the condoms available are “laced with AIDS”, which is quite a bit different than just telling people that condom use is not condoned by the Catholic Church.
What they’ve done is criminal, and will likely cause the deaths of a lot more people than any organized crime operation.
So, I guess you can put me in the “I agree with Anaamika” column.
At least the mafia is upfront about what they stand for. The church is a sneaking LYING evil concerned with trivial bullshit like what languages are spoken in these united states and whether or not that’s okay, and who goes out dancing on Saturday nights and has a beer or two, rather than actually engaging in what Jesus actually TOLD us to do.
I’m with Aanimika, the hypocisy, prejudice and false pretense of caring, is far worse.
I grew up in the church, and still recieve silly glurge from various family members. I’m currently working on a “shame on you my ‘fellow’ christians” letter to “reply all” to very soon. I need to do some research in the ole bible first (theologically speaking, I SUCK at my faith, but I DO know that Jesus preached love, tolerance and understanding, NOT the hatred my former church is constantly preaching in the name of patriotism). So, if that background serves as any sort of “growing balls” or “proof” there it is. Barring that, if you like, I’ll start pasting some of the glurge here. (the sound of ultimate suffering from millions of dopers :D) to show what is meant here.
Bottom line? As someone else posted above, when you’re comparing “better and worse” there IS no cite, they’re completely subjective and change at the drop of a hat depending upon which side is viewing the issue.
Sheesh, “butch UP Aanimika?” More like “Caffeine DOWN QuickSilver”. :rolleyes:
Will someone please explain to me where this sudden rash of “honest” criminals coming from?
Are OC members standing up in front of judges saying, “Guilty your honour. I’m guilty of drug trafficing, profitting from prostitution, racketteering and stealing candy as a minor. Lock me up your honour. Throw away the key!”
Look, it’s not that I’m not insensed that Law is sitting at the Vatican instead of behind bars with a cell mate nicknamed Bruizer. But Law and his ilk, sick and wrong as they may be, are not the driving force behind OR. Nor are the sole reason OR exists.
Fuck it. I’m tired of beating this dead horse. I suppose if I had an axe to grind with OR then I might feel the same way many of you do right now. It’s a personal and deeply seeded issue for many of you and perhaps I don’t entirely understand how difficult it it to be objective on the subject. Or perhaps I just need to switch to decaf. 
Look, the honest criminal are not current, but historical. The mafia did not start out as a group out to intimatdate merchants, it started out kinda like the IRA, and for the same purpose.
Quicksilver --wish I had a blowing kiss smiley for ya.
I think the “honesty” comes in because the Mafia knows it is self-serving and illegal etc. But it does it anyway-b/c it has deemed it’s needs to be above those of others. It doesn’t attempt to dupe others by appealing to justice and charity.
The Church et al, ITOH, can mask one of it’s true impetus behind a facade of “goodness” and “purity” and “love”. For example-Oral Roberts knew he wasn’t gonna die–his cash cow ministry might have been in danger, but not him…
First, the OP that started all this is worded in the present time, not historic. In present time, some OR is doing some serious good. In present time, I am not aware of any OC that is doing any good.
Second, the Italian Mafia is not the only OC organization. Some would even say that they are not nearly the worst of the bunch by today’s standards. I’m not limiting OR to the Christian religion, nor am I limiting OC to the Italian mafia alone.
Third, there is no third! 
Why? 
But nobody is under any illusion that OC is honest, right? We expect it to be crooked and it is and thus we are not disappointed.
Oral Roberts does not define all OR. By your own admission he is not even a legitimate representative. But not every member of OR is an… ummmm… OR… (…perhaps you’re on to something there…) :dubious:
But seriously, you can’t possibly believe that OR = OC on the ol’ evil-o-meter?
Now, it may not make a whole lotta sense but when have I ever backed down from a bad idea, right? Now let’s get this train-wreck a-rollin’! The OP? The OP suggested that Anaamika buy a bady doll nightie. I see no reason to say, “OR may have done some bad things in the past, but let’s ignore it.” That is diffrent from saying, “OR has done alot of bad in the past. We will now own up to it, and use our organization to do good.” The first one is what you seem to be saying, judging from your choice of words.
Putting lying about condoms into it, and past events, yes, I would say I do think the ol’ meter o’ evil is pointing towards OR.
The smiley kiss is b/c you are being nice and trying to understand–I like that on a Monday morning.
You are correct.
So much of the evil perpetuated by OR cannot be equated to the brutality that is perped by OC. But that evil still exists, and I think that is what people are getting at.
OR doesn’t break your knees (my intimate knowledge of OC is somewhat limited) or insist on kickbacks…nope, it (sometimes and not all) takes your money under false pretenses and tries to control you with fear. NOT the fear of bodily harm to you and yours, but eternal damnation etc–and some people fall for it.
OR is cloaked–it seems to be all sweetness and light and good–but can hide great wrongs. OC makes no such claim–it is just out there with its wrongness.
Clearer?
I think she should give it a try, though. And let us be the judge of it. With pictures.
Okay, I think I see what may be causing some of the confusion.
I’m assuming a certain level of *personal responsibility * on behalf of the observant member of the OR in question. That is to say, if the RCC tells me that I can’t use condoms, I tell them to pound sand and mind their own fucking business. Or at least leave me alone to mind my own fucking business.
(Not trying to pick on RCC alone here, you understand… just using this as an example. Feel free to extrapolate that to any OR of your choosing.)
When the RCC donates a bunch of money (collected from parisheners) to build a new wing onto St. Michael’s hospital, I applaud their generocity because though they try to dictate their view on sex (which I ignore) they will still gladly treat me as a patient if I’m not well in their brand new state of the art facility. They’ll do this despite the fact that I use condoms, am jewish by birth and atheist by choice.
I’d say the OR in this case, like in many others, is netting “GOOD”.
I’m not suggesting that we forget the past. I’m not suggesting that we forgive all transgressions. I’m not suggesting that we don’t remain ever vigilant to prevent continued or new abuses. What I am suggesting is that along with the bad comes a great deal of good. OR is a human institution and is thus an accurate reflection of all that’s right and wrong in society. It is slow to change but there is undeniable evidence that it does change to meet the needs of society. In complete absence of some OR, there may not be as many new St. Michael’s hospital wings, homeless shelters or food banks. I certainly would not hold my breath for the Gotti Center for Cancer Research.