Given the multi-national nature of car corporations and the fact that Honda produces many of its US cars at a plant in Marysville, OH plant is purchasing a GM vs a Honda really going to help the US more in any substantial fashion?
And considering that GM has significant operations in Mexico… no answers, I’ve often wondered the same thing.
(Hearsay caveat) OK, I have no cites for this; I get it from my brother the “car nut”:
AFAIK, while Hondas from Marysville OH are assembled there, though some or all of the actual fabrication of the parts may take place elsewhere (Japan, for instance).
I am led to understand that it is Chrysler of the US “big three” who has the largets proportion of its fabrication and assembly operations producing cars for the US domestic market outside of the US. In other words, most Chryslers sold in the US are made in part or in whole in Mexico, Canada, or other non-US locations.
GM has had plants in Canada for decades, but a lot of the production there is (or at one time was) intended for the Canadian market. Likewise, Mexican operations produce for Mexico and much of Latin America. However, I would not be at all surprised to know this has changed significantly with NAFTA and similar arrangements.
Please feel more than free to prove me wrong on any or all of the above statements.
On the other hand, Accords are made in the US.
And, arguably, a far better car than GM could ever dream of making.
Well, North American Accords are made in North America. The car sold as an Accord in Japan and Europe is smaller, and won’t be seen on these shores until next year, as an Acura, perhaps named the TSX (Honda was left with a hole at the bottem end of the Acura line when the RSX, a two-door only car, replaced the two- and four-door Integras). Many Hondas are also made in Alliston, Ontario, including the Canada-only Acura 1.7EL.
As an aside, the Acura name is only used in North America. Everywhere else, all models are sold under the Honda name. The same is true of Lexus/Toyota, at least in Japan.
The Big Three produce a vast number of cars in Canada, certainly far more than could ever be sold in domestically. Of the $750 billion annual trade betwen Canada and the U.S., 20% is automotive (and 80% of that crosses the border at Windsor/Detroit, meaning that the Peace Bridge sees more trade than the U.S. does with all of South America).
It depends where your car is manufactured.
If it’s a GM made totally in Mexico then only the profit will find it’s way back to Detroit (usually $1000 or so for a car). The rest of the money will pay the local worker, pay for the factory costs, paty for shipping the vehicle up here…etc. The same goes for a Japanese car made in the US.
The best way you can really help the US car manufacturers is to test all of the available cars (no matter who makes them), read the reliability ratings, drive them some more, examine the real cost of buying (including discounts, financing options and ownership costs) and buy the one that floats your boat, paying no attention to who makes it.
By buying what you want you are sending a message to the US auto companies - they need to produce that kind of car - if sales are made up of people buying US cars purely because they want to prop u the economy, those companies will eventually be big losers as they fail to react to what the market wants. By buying a car purely because of it’s national origin, you’re letting the car companies tell you what to buy.
There are plenty of good cars out there, US and foreign built. Pick what you like.
Oh, I should correct and clarify: my number of $750 billion is in Canadian dollars, and seems a trifle over-stated. The Canadian government says $675.8 billion in two-way goods & services trade in 2001 (down from $697.2 in 2000).
One could argue that the best thing that can be done for the U.S. economy in the long run is to buy the best vehicle that you can afford. If it’s a GM, hooray for us. If it’s a Honda, this will force GM to produce superior cars.
Haj
(and similarly expressed by keithnmick)
Absolutely the right way to buy a car. It’s a little depressing when I see people swearing “never” to buy an American car again. I swore off American cars with my first Honda years ago when American quality was not very well regarded. I’ve since come back, because they’re better.
Now as to helping the economy in the short term (as opposed to the long term), it’s really a touchy question – even the auto makers don’t play the nationalism card much these days (although the UAW still preaches it). Sure, the money comes back to Detroit, which is distributed to the stockholders who are largely American but can be any nationality. Of course the same goes for foreign brands – there’s nothing preventing us as Americans (those of us here that are) from profiting from Toyota or Fiat or Renault.
Sure I’d like you to buy an American brand vehicle, but really it doesn’t matter – I want you to buy one of my company’s vehicles; screw the other guys. That’s just plain, simple self-interest.
Typically the “Buy American” campaigns (in our industry) are union movements. These are typically (note: not 100%) people that vote what the union tells them to, to think what the union tells them to, and believe in the union beyond all other reason. Think newspeak and big brother and you’ll know what I mean. Despite the majority of them being stock holders in the company, they’re often short-sighted as to what “profitabilty” means to the company. They’re worried about their jobs. Of course unions have large memberships in this country, and word-of-mouth does wonders. If someone tells you (not you specifically, but you in general) that it’s better for the economy to buy American, and really have no proof (or thoughts) against it, you’ll find yourself repeating it.
I don’t believe buying American cars “for the principle” really makes that much difference, but I’ll continue repeating the sentiment anyway hoping you’ll consider buying one of mine.
Final note: are there any stats anywhere that really show how many people would not consider a foreign brand just for being foreign? With our 22% market share, there are at least 1-in-5 that chose American cars out of fondness rather than obligation, right?
Of course buying an American car would help the American economy more than buying a foreign car. Yes both types of cars are assembled in the US, but American cars are also engineered and tested in the US. There is not a Honda proving ground or a Lexus tech center in the U.S. Also American cars use a higher percentage of American made sources (Less out-sourcing) due to Union bargaining.
I was watching NBC Nightly News the other day and it gave a statistic like: For ever 1 person directly employed by GM 17 jobs are created. I can’t give a cite for that statistic, but if true, that pretty damn impressive.
I’ll take my Chevy over a Honda any day. 135,000 miles, and other than a new muffler (salt destroyed) and regular maintainence I haven’t put a damn dime into repairs. That is reliability you can’t beat.
Good for you. I haven’t had a day of trouble with my Jeep either. However, our stories are statistcally far more common with Toyota and Honda owners than with GM, Ford, Chrysler owners. The fantastic service we have is more the norm with them and the exception with the Big 3.
I know the auto industry is somewhat incestuous, with Ford and GM owning large chunks of equity in foreign companies, and it some cases having outright control, like Ford and Volvo. And of course Chrysler isn’t Chrysler anymore, it’s DaimlerChrysler. (Old joke: “How do you pronounce DaimlerChrysler in German? The Chrysler is silent”.) So even the question of which countries stockholders benefit from a purchase can be pretty tangled.
My family always made an effort when I was growing up to buy American cars. I have not maintained that tradition. If there was a clear distinction as to where the money went and what countries’ workers, stockholders, and economy benefited, then maybe my patriotism would have some bearing on what maker I bought from. As it is, my pocketbook and preferences come first.
Another thing to confuse: when my husband was shopping for a truck a couple years back on the Ford lot, they had disclosures on the stickers saying stuff like: “Engine from - Detroit, Exhaust system - Korea, Electronics - Belgium” (I’m not a car person, so I’m grabbing these out of a hat since I don’t remember the specifics) and the next identical-seeming truck would have a sticker that said “Engine - Mexico, Exhaust - Kentucky, Electronics - Canada” etc. I’m under the impression that everything sold today is pretty “multicultural.” I have to agree with keithnmick that in the long run you should buy what suits you the best so that carmakers regardless of nation will continue to make and improve on it.
Do your homework; test drive several makes and models, check their histories in Consumer Reports, talk to people who’ve owned the cars for a few years if you can. Seriously - if you’re walking down the street and you see someone getting out of their car say “Say, I’ve been thinking of getting a _______, how do you like it so far?” They’ll tell you all the pros and cons and things you never even considered. “I love the gas milage, but I wish the trunk was bigger.” “It has plenty of room but a really rough ride.” “It’s fast and comfortable but has already been in the shop 3 times this year for x, y, and z.”
Example: I drive a 98 Civic LX. I primarily bought it because I wanted 4 doors and was impressed by its reliability records. Something I really appreciate but never considered was the deep trunk and the fold down rear seats that give me nearly as much cargo room as a small truck (width and length wise, not height obviously.) I can go to the hardware store or IKEA and buy a stack of lumber or slabs of furnishings without having to bum a ride with a pickup/suv-driving friend. One of my largest annoyances is the way the A/C system operates on the dash. Instead of having a simple on/off switch they have push buttons with a teensy light that shows the system is on (same with the fresh/recirc air). If you’re driving down the highway in the blazing sun you seriously cannot tell what’s set on what. You have to turn on the fan, cup your hand over the button and squint at it, hold your hand in front of the vent and try to guess if it’s getting cooler or not, push the button and repeat to see if there’s any difference. I don’t want to mess with that going 65 miles an hour, and it’s one of the first things I’ll check for when I go to buy my next car.
Now, are the 2003 Civics different from the 1998? Absolutely, and chances are the A/C system is completely different, but you’ve already learned an insane amount more about the car than you’d get from even the best car commercial. Fold down rear seats are good, people like them and chances are they’re still available. I’m still impressed with the reliability (only time I’ve had to take it in was for an ignition switch recall last month, which took just over an hour of my time to have replaced) and I’m glad I went with the 4 doors. (There comes a point in your life when your friends and family are less young and spry and climbing over a collapsed front seat into the back of a 2-door becomes more of a hardship, haha.) You may end up having no interest in a Honda in the long run but come across similar attributes/problems in other dealerships and now you know to consider or avoid them.
Power to the people, right on!
Upon preview I wanted to add (as if it’s not long enough already) that if you’ve narrowed down the choices and you have the luxury, you might want to go to a rental place and try a similar car out for longer than a test drive so you can get an actual feel of it in more varied situations: merging onto freeways, backroad driving, hills, parallel parking, cornering, visibility, etc. A car my family rented once on vacation was so grossly underpowered (we had to turn off the A/C to pull out into traffic, even on a regular surface street!) that it scared us from ever considering a car from that line, 10 year warranty or no! 
CMBurns: I saw today where Fiat (Italy’s largest employer, so the article said) is laying off 6000 workers. The article also pointed out that GM currently owns a 20% share of Fiat and would very mich like the other 80%.
Thanks, I didn’t know about that one. I know Fiat owns both the Ferrrari and Maserati names, I wonder if that means once I scrape together enough money for my Ferrari I can claim I’m buying it to benefit the US economy:)
I did a quick check looking to what other foreign car companies had major American backing (don’t know how up to date this is):
Ford:
100% Volvo
100% Jaguar
100% Land Rover
33% Mazda
GM:
100% Saab
49% Isuzu
20% Suzuki
20%Subaru
All of which goes to show that it is kind of tricky to define exactly what is an American car.
Hmm, Would’nt the best way to help the economy be to buy stocks in GM or Honda?
Actually, there are Honda and Toyota (maybe not specifically Lexus) research and development facilities in the United States. I sent job applications to both of them, as a matter of fact. You can check out the web site for Honda’s facilities here, while I can’t remember where to find the corresponding one for Toyota. Honda also has somewhere around 400 suppliers in the United States that they work with - I can’t remember the exact number off the top of my head. They don’t work with unionized plants as often, though, and workers at Japanese factories in the United States are almost never unionized. That’s probably why unions advertise for you to buy American.
To further cloud the waters, most of the parts on cars these days are outsourced. Usually, the body and basic engine block are from the same manufacturer as the car, but sometimes manufacturers have been known to contract out entire vehicles (the Honda Passport, built by Isuzu, comes to mind). For example, a Ford may have its clutch built by the German firm of LuK GmbH, a Mazda engine, Bosch (German) fuel injectors, brakes built by the Bendix Corporation, seats from some company whose name I can’t remeber, and so forth. These companies - the Tier 1 suppliers - may subcontract parts of their operations out further, until you get on down to some parts that may have been ordered from some tiny firm that’s basically just one or two guys who’ve managed to buy a CNC punch press and set up shop in an old barn in South Carolina (or for that matter, somebody who has set it up in his garage in Japan).
On the other hand, since the only cars I’ve bought have been bought used (and frequently abused), the purchase of a used car mostly just helps to line the dealer’s pocket anyway. The issue’s kind of a moot point if you’re not buying new.
Both Honda (Canada) and Toyota (USA and Canada) were very good customers of one my previous employers. In the case of Toyota there was a research center just down the road from us, and I’ve gone there several times, and all of the employees that I saw were Americans (or Canadians, they sorta look the same :)).
Was that “outsourcing” or a “partnership”? For example the Mercury Villager wasn’t merely an outsourced Mazda, it was a “partnership” vehicle. GM and Chrysler have also had regular partnerships. Toyota and GM co-own assembly plants in Ontario and California for this purpose.
Not really. The dealer and/or bank probably report the price of the car as sold. Those statistics are used to composite the trade-in values of cars at varying points of the cars’ lives. Therefore by deciding to purchase a 1996 Cavalier with 100,000 miles for $15,000 vs. a 1996 Civic with 100,000 miles for $10,000, you’re helping the perception Civics are worthless – or worth less – than a comparable Cavalier, thus enforcing the brand image of the Cavalier. Obviously this is only an absurd example to illustrate a point.
IF you visit a new car lot, as I did, on each car is a price paper & it should state what % of the parts of the car are from what country. e.g. PTCruiser is around 30% mexico & canadian parts ( I really forgot the exact % but you can check on them yourself)
IMO, this statement is just simply wrong, relying on flawed logic, unless the car you purchase is the best car at the best price, based on objective information you have available to you, regardless of where it was built, where its parts were sourced, and whose nameplate is on the back.
Much like the sentiments expressed by hajario and keithnmick, the one major underlying assumption of free market theory is based on buyers make rational decisions, based on all information available.
To purchase a US made vehicle for any other reason only serves, economically, to encourage US carmakers to make less than competitive vehicles.