Buying a (piano) keyboard: worth it?

[partly_warmer]

*Originally posted by MsWhatsit *
**partly_warmer, I’m confused. You say that a $1000 piano is unacceptable (why, by the way?) but then say I should call a piano teacher and ask them the best option for an inexpensive piano. So are inexpensive pianos unacceptable or not?

I mean, the Pacific Northwest Ballet often has sales to sell off their used practice pianos, and a few years ago I went down there to test drive one, and it sounded and felt pretty good to me, and was priced at $1600, which is not much above some of the prices I saw in the classifieds. What’s wrong with that? **

One of the main sources for piano evaluations is “The Piano Book” by Larry Fine. It’s in its 3rd edition, and you’ll find that piano dealers know it. If you’re interested in the details of how to evaluate a piano, and what reasonable prices are, this is your book.

Your Pacific Northwest Ballet might be a reasonable deal. But a $1600 Yamaha electric piano is also going to be a reasonable deal. (And it’s a safer bet.)

A piano teacher will be familiar with the dilemma facing students who need to practice, but don’t have much money. Since you’ll be paying them to improve (and since they want you to have a good experience) it’s definitely in their interest to steer you in the right direction.

The reasons I was being cautionary are two-fold. Giving pianos a fair evaluation is tough. If those $1600 Pacific Northwest Ballet pianos immediately need tuning, action regulating, and voicing, then the real price might be something like $2000, not $1600. $2000 buys a very nice electronic keyboard.

Lastly, and this is more annecdotal, I’ve noticed that pianists who learn on poor instruments (or ones poorly maintained) seem to have a tin ear when it comes to being subtle. You asked about not forming bad habits? Playing on a piano with poor action, which doesn’t stay in tune, and which never was a good instrument in the first place will develop bad habits.

There are church pianists who can play pieces much more complicated than I am able to without making mistakes, but everything they play sounds something like an elevator speaker. This drives me crazy, and they can’t tell the difference!

A Kurzweil (which is in your price rance, second hand) includes recording of a Bosendorfer, which is a SENSATIONAL piano, in some people’s opinion better than a Steinway.

And I believe Yamaha electric piano owners are generally very happy with their purchases, too. So it’s kind of a sure bet.

[MsWhatsit]

OK, well, I am now vacillating again. I guess the thing to do is go out and test out some of the nicer keyboards and see how well I like them. Being able to play at all hours of the night would definitely be a benefit, and I see your point about learning to play on a crappy instrument. My grandma’s piano had action that felt like banging on Q-tips, so your options were either playing L-O-U-D or not at all.

Where would one go about purchasing a secondhand electronic keyboard, by the way? Or a firsthand one, for that matter?

[av8rmike]

MsWhatsit, I went through the exact same dilemma you’re going through, about acoustic vs. digital. If you’re going digitial, some things to consider are:
Which is more important, sounding like a real piano or feeling like one? If you want one with “pressure sensitive” keys as opposed to “velocity sensitive,” you’ve automatically tacked on about $1000. One teacher with whom I spoke said that velocity sensitive does tend to teach you to play the wrong way.
Also, bear in mind that a digital is basically a computer shaped like a piano. If something happens to the electronics, you could be looking at mega-bucks to get it serviced. With a used one, you’re almost certain to not have a warranty. And compared to acoustics, it will depreciate like crazy, used or not.
Now, regarding the Ballet and used instruments, talk to a local piano tuner or tech. They may be willing to inspect an instrument for you so you don’t end up with a lemon.
Hope this doesn’t throw a monkey wrench into your plans.

Quoth partly_warmer
One of the main sources for piano evaluations is “The Piano Book” by Larry Fine.

The Stooge?

[partly_warmer]

*Originally posted by MsWhatsit *
**…I see your point about learning to play on a crappy instrument. My grandma’s piano had action that felt like banging on Q-tips, so your options were either playing L-O-U-D or not at all.

Where would one go about purchasing a secondhand electronic keyboard, by the way? Or a firsthand one, for that matter? **

. . . playing loud or not at all — yes! that’s the effect I was thinkin’ of.

A new keyboard might be your best bet. If I was buying new I’d do three things:

1. Get your fingers on a Yamaha, a Kurzweil, and a Korg. Test drive.

2. Consult with the piano teacher of your choice. Finding one may be a chore in itself. How are you going to do that? I have no idea. Maybe somebody here would help.

3. Do Internet searches. Get a couple of the music mags from the stands, and see what they say.

Maybe rent a couple keyboards/pianos until you find out what you like? Or until the deal of the century comes your waY?

---

av8rmike, the Larry Fine book is about the only thing out there reviewing pianos. It’s taken a lot of heat for being too honest and identifying cruddy pianos for what they are.

[Briny_Deep]

For electric keyboards in Seattle, check out Guitar Center (oddly enough) and American Music in Fremont. American Music will have used ones as well. There are other sources - possibly decent deals on electric keyboards to be had at Prosser’s. Stay far away from Kennelly Keys, Mills Music, etc. (ridiculously overpriced).

I’m a professional and I’ll take my nice electronics over a crappy or even mediocre upright any day of the week. I don’t intend to own an acoustic piano until I own a house, and then it will cost about as much as the house, I think.

[Eats_Crayons]

*Originally posted by squeegee *
**2. The sound of any digitial piano, IMHO, doesn’t come within even the ballpark of even a really crappy ‘real’ piano. **

Actually, some of the newest digital pianos do indeed have remarkably accurate voices.

In the recording studio, when the piano must be heard out front and is prominent, we use an actual piano. But the average person would find the difference negligible – I can’t really hear the difference unless I’m wearing headphones.

[Eats_Crayons]

*Originally posted by Gartog *
**I have a Yamaha p80 digital stage piano, which is great - but comes without built in speakers.

I would recommend one of the Yamaha range and echo what others have said regarding the size.
**

We’re actually looking at the P-120 as a rehearsal piano. It’s the newer fancier upgrade to the P-80. All the pro musicians we know who’ve got the P-80 just love them!

IIRC the P-120 does have speakers and the voices are even more accurate (at the P-80 was pretty accurate already.) As for the keyboard, the P-120s is as follows:

Graded Hammer Effect Keyboard - a keyboard with action that’s virtually indistinguishable from the real thing. Just as on a traditional acoustic piano, the keys of the lower notes have a heavier touch, while the higher ones are more responsive to lighter playing. The keyboard’s sensitivity can even be adjusted to match your playing style.

MsWhatsit check the bulletin boards in music stores and the classified ads of the indie newspapers that cater to musicians. Sometimes you can get a great deal because a “starving artist” is so strapped for cash they have to part with an instrument and can’t wait for a consignment sale. (I know a photographer who got a ridiculously good deal on an otherwise exremely expensive camera this way.)

[partly_warmer]

Eeek, I just realized “The Piano Book” only covers non-electric pianos, MsWhatsit. No purpose in consulting it if going electric.

And parenthetically, I must say that Charmian is imparting a strong urge to look at the P-120. (Naturally, being loyal to Kurzweil, I’d also look at that. Love that Bosendorfer!)

I’ll mention parenthetically that though I own a tolerable upright, there are many things (some of them possibly very useful to you, MsWhatsit) the electric pianos can do that standard pianos can’t.

[Eats_Crayons]

partly_warmer - Yup, but my bias is because it’s the one that is most attractive to us right now. We’v also looked at a couple different Rolands, but the P-120 is on target for or price range and has features well-suited to our intended use.

It’s a good size too. The Roland we liked was really big for some reason.

[squeegee]

*Originally posted by Charmian *
Actually, some of the newest digital pianos do indeed have remarkably accurate voices.

In the recording studio, when the piano must be heard out front and is prominent, we use an actual piano. But the average person would find the difference negligible – I can’t really hear the difference unless I’m wearing headphones.

Hmmm, I guess it depends on the material. I had a Yamaha P200 on loan for a while. Playing a Joplin piece was fine on it, but softer things like Chopin preludes, IMO, sounded just not quite right. For me it was the peddle response that was lacking; sostenuto sounded neither like an upright or grand, sustain sounded quite fake sometimes. Your mileage will vary.

FWIW, I played piano for years when I was a kid, but as an adult I’ve only been hacking at it for about the last 3 years or so, so I’m hardly an expert player with an expert ear. But for me the electronic versions of pianos just don’t sound near the real thing.

Just my vote, no denigration intended towards digital piano fans.

MsWhatsit, I’d like to echo partly_warmer’s comments about Larry Fine’s book. If you’re buying a used piano, it’s invaluable. Get it. Now.

As for the $1000 piano: I’m not sure I’d agree that you can’t find something worthwhile at that price. You can probably find a fine, though probably beat-up (i.e. ugly on the outside, fine on the inside) piano in that range, but it will take some footwork. Try looking for private sales for a good deal. Hire a piano tech to check out the piano and tell you if it’s worth buying. But first read the Fine book and figure out what you really want to get.

Another suggestion: RENT a piano for a few months. It will get you back in the swing of playing, and help you decide if a piano fits into apartment living. You can probably rent a spinet for around $40/month while you keep your fingers in shape and decide what to do next. Look in the yellow pages under Pianos or check the local classifieds.