Buying SUVs = supporting terrorists!

Great Debates
41

I am using the word “subsidization” in a broader sense meaning that there are costs that are not being incorporated into the price of the resource that are nonetheless borne by society at large. I include in this the environmental degradation associated with drilling for the oil as well as the various environmental and other costs associated with its use.

Yes, this is true. But, this gets back to the point in my last post. I really think that people are taking these commercials too literally. Yes, they are hyberbole but that is because (1) the ads that they parody so well are hyperbole [and, God, do they ever parody them well!] and (2) they are put out there to raise a lot consciousness. In order to do that, they really on a certain amount of shock value. They are trying to get people to see things in new ways…to realize that their personal decisions, writ large, can have dramatic global consequences. They are not meant to be PhD dissertations on the connection between SUV fuel consumption and terrorism by radical Islamic fundamentalists (or whoever).

42

I was just about to pack the family into the responsible old Yugo to flee from the menace of terrorism in my very neighborhood (Tom Ridge told me so, and a zealous, sincere representative of the government can’t be wrong), when along comes this notice that if I buy the gasoline to flee the terrorists I’m only helping the terrorists pursue me (the smug anti-government rationalizers told me so, and nobody that zealous and sincere can be wrong). So we decided to hunker down and hope for the best. But then the heating oil ran out, and I thought, damn, if I buy the oil, I’ll just be helping the terrorists. So I got out the trusty old chain saw to cut a little firewood to keep the kids warm, but the League of Tree and Mosquito Protection formed a human chain around the trees, which was just as well, since I was feeling too guilty to buy any gas for the chain saw anyway. So it was getting pretty cold, what with petroleum equalling terrorism, firewood equalling habitat destruction, coal being tantamount to rape, and nuclear powerplants equalling the end of all humanity. So I went home and told everybody they would just have to huddle together and make the best of it.

But then the kids started getting a little bit hungry, so I got out my gun and went hunting, but the League of Gun Haters immediately blinded me with a tofu barrage and the People United For Critter Protection nearly took out one of my eyes. Meat is murder, I was now convinced, and all animal products are just exploitation of the weak by the strong, but then they showed me this study saying that plants actually suffer, so, heartbroken, I realized that eating was a selfish act that destroyed my fellow travellers on this Starship Earth, so I went home and told everybody that they would just have to make due with dirt, rocks, and the occasional unfortunate insect that happened to fly into their mouths.

Then the kids, not understanding the deeper wisdom in all of this, complained that they were thirsty. But drawing water from the endangered aquifers threatens the entire planetary ecosystem, I explained, and diverting even a cupful of water from a stream can have a devastating effect on a fish spawning ground downriver – what if everyone took only a cupful, I asked? There would be none left, and the entire planet would wither and die due only to their selfish needs. So I told them they would have to make due with standing outside when it rains with their mouths open.

Then the taxman came, and I explained that we couldn’t give him any money, because we were being responsible, and so we were poor and cold and hungry and thirsty. And the kids, being kids, asked why the taxman was wearing a turban. I hushed them, of course, since questions like that reveal nothing but ignorance.
Gairloch

43

There’s a thread on this you may (or may not) enjoy: I’m helping terrorists - and loving it!.

44

I strongly suspect that geophysicists and such made similar guaratnees about Louisiana at one time – see what a mess they made there. It’s hard to believe the oil industry in these matters, with their environmental track record. To put it simply, the oil industry and its apologists have lost all credibility in this regard. It’s like Saddam saying “I promise I won’t build weapons of mass destruction again.”

Riiiiiiight.

45

By the way, although these ads are clearly parodies of the drug ads, their roots go back a lot further. The Jan/Feb issue of Sierra Magazine (published by Sierra Club) showed some government posters from World War II, contrasting the “conserve to help our country at war” message of then with the “spend to help our country at war” message today.

One of the posters says “When you ride ALONE, you ride with Hitler” and shows a man sitting in the driver’s seat and a sort of outline “ghost” drawing of Hitler sitting in the passenger seat.

46

Again this goes back to my point, It is very hard to take any of this seriously when the producers of this commercial use 7 years worth of SUV fuel for a single trip. The only shock value to me is the blatant hypocrisy of the producers.

What are we to conclude? I can only see 2:
1 - They are in full support of terrorism as they will consume as much fuel as they can and just want to inform you that you can too. - Doubtful but it is the only way I can take it with them being fair and open minded.
2 - You common folk stop using those SUV’s, you really don’t need them and the extra fuel you are burning is supporting terrorism, Because I am above you I can’t be expected to give up my excess fuel consuming toys, you can’t have someone like me run around in a yugo you know. Besides my excess fuel usage is just a drop in the bucket and really is needed for someone in my position. - THis is what I get out of the commercials.

I say that these people should lead by example, they should heat their houses and generate electricity with solar panels, stop taking private jets (7 $#@en years of SUV fuel for one #%*en trip for crying out loud!) get hybrid or pure electric cars way before critizing us.

Their commercial makes me want to consume fuel.

47

I heat my house with oil and my parents did too.

That makes me second generation al Qaeda.

And I drive an 11mpg Suburban.

I wonder how many terrorists I have funded, how will I live with myself

48

Does anyone know which gas stations don’t use imported oil?

49

I think there is one in Saudia Araiba. All gas stations use at least some imported oil. There was a email going around that ‘told’ you which stations did/didn’t buy oil from terrorist states. It has been debunked as they all do.

50

BTW k2, she does drive a hybrid. But that’s besides the point. As is her hypocrisy.

What is hard to understand here?

If you want to fight terrorism in meaningful ways (rather than by wearing lapel pins and putting the flag on your doormat) then do the things that are within your power to do. These are things that you can do to fight terrorism:

Giving the Saudis a little less to funnel into terrorism and to indirectly support the climate that fosters and breeds terror is something you can do.

Helping make the US a little less reliant on supporting the corrupt and oppressive Saudi regieme is another something you can do.

Just by conserving in moderate ways. You don’t need to go all green and ride a bike to work every day to make a difference.

What do I think of these middle class surburbanites who drive these big honkin’ SUVs?

  1. Not too smart. If they believe that they are driving something safer than other cars … it is just not so. They ignorantly buy into the pablum that the manufactuers spoon feed them.

  2. Selfish. They are putting those of us in smaller vehicles at unneeded risk for no good reason; they are wasting a limitted resource more than drivers of more modest vehicles for selfish reasons; they are doing more than their share of contributing to the situation that fosters terrorism and more than their share of contributing to global warming, pollution, etc.

  3. No class. If they, as many do, believe that an SUV advertises their status, then they advetise that they are so insecure that they need to use their vehicle to try to impress people. It has the opposite effect; it tells me that they have no class at all. I feel the same way about other so called luxury vehicles, BTW.

And the argument of “well unless you don’t use any fuel at all, or use the very most efficient method around, then you have no right to talk” seems like a pathetic defense of the ethically bankrupt self absorbed. And I love the position that driving a more reasonably sized vehicle is too big of a burden to impose so let’s pillage the environment for more oil instead. And yes I care more about global warming and greenhouse gases and pollution and its health consequences, etc, than I do about the very real, albeit indirect, terror link … I think that those will end up killing more, and destroy economies more over time than terror ever will.

51

I know she owns a hybrid ** DSeid ** because I heard her say it in an interview but wouldn’t answer if she has any other cars. IIRC she has a 9 car garage. This doesn’t begin to answer why she would say that SUV owners are supporting terrorists while she has in one single trip consumed what would take a SUV 7 years to consume.

No it’s exactly the point, why is it OK for her but not OK for us?

52

So ignore that it is her saying it. I’m saying it and my record is a little less wasteful. Not perfect mind you. Is my record being not perfect also reason to discount the points made? (I could do a better job weatherstripping my back door for example) How about debating the idea rather than the hypocritical person who put it in very public eye in an extremely annoying, although humorous, manner?

53

That is a big difference, You would be talking to us at the same level, she is talking down to us as if there is a double standard.

OK so you say that driving SUV’s is supportng terrorism. Based on something like:
driving is a nessesity but driving anything more then a very basic fuel efficinet model (I’ll just call it a yugo for short) is a waste of energy. That waste of energy gives oil producers slightly more money so they have more to give to terrorist orgs. By choosing not to drive a yugo you are infact helping out these terrorist orgs.

This assumes that fuel has to come from the countries that support terrorism. The same political thinking that gets us to this point usually is against domestic oil production which would lessen the $'s going overseas. By a very simular reasoning I could say that all those who oppose drilling in ANWR are supporting terrorism. Additionally the same political thinking is on the side to not go to war with iraq - so they are even further supporting terrorism.

Also if we all switched to yugos to conserve energy, gas prices would initially fall due to excess supply but there is no garentee that they would stay low, I would venture to guess that we would all be paying a lot more for fuel as supply is tightened (to compensate) and the moeny would once again flow into bin laden’s pockets. We would be paying much more for smaller amounts of fuel.

One of the latest Bush plans for the war on Iraq calls for us holding the oil fields and pumping enough oil to cover the cost of the war, I am in full support of that.

I am trying not to deflect the argument but to tie a bigger picture together. I feel these issues are linked and must be delt with as a whole. One single piece (everyone switching to yugo’s) is not the answer, a comprenhensive plan for energy from non-terrorist sources is.

Now to get energy from non-terrorist sources could mean killing them, pumping our own, seizing theirs, developing a new fuel (who knows, maybe some day we can find a way to extract energy our of coal or urnaium).

54

right, she owns a hybrid.

which, I’m sure, is what she uses to travel all over the country.
I’m sure it’s her only car, and she never uses limo’s or private planes.
anybody have figures for the gas mileage of stretch limo’s and private planes vs suv’s?

like that guy just said, revenue isn’t just a function of quantity.
the saudis can make just as much $ on less oil by raising their price to compensate.
and maybe some of the anti-suv crowd is to young to realize this, but the saudis made some pretty decent money before suv’s were ever popular.
THAT’S the money that’s indirectly funding al qaeda.

you’d have to be a nitwit to think that fewer suv’s would make any kind of difference to the saudi fortune.

how does this qualify as a ‘great debates thread’???
where’s the debate?
this is just stupidity.
maybe I should start a thread claiming that tinfoil hats block al qaeda’s mind control devices — let the debate begin!!

hey ---- I know some people that drive an hour to get to work.
I’ll let them know that they support terrorism.

THOSE BASTARDS!!!

on top of that, they FLEW someplace on their vacation!!

DAMN THEM!!

y’know, this reminds me of all those morbidly obese people standing in line at burger king, waiting to order 2 whoppers, a large fry, a side of grease from the fryer, and a DIET coke.

I’d like to add up everybody’s oil consumption, and see how arianna totals up w/her hybrid.
how considerate of her.

ps

for the guy who keeps chiming in w/‘this has nothing to do w/arianna’, I like to get a bead on the credibility of my sources.
if some fucking nitwit living in a dumpster has advice for me, I’ll probably discount it.
if a convict, or televangelist, has some great investment opportunity for me, I might be skeptical.

55

Some Oil companies get a much larger % of their crude from Western sites.

56

I breathe, which creates carbon dioxide, which allows marajuana plants to grow, which allows drug dealers to sell it, which allows terrorism to happen.

Go enough degrees away and you can find anything (and Kevin Bacon).

57

Smells just like an argumentum ad hominem to me. You don’t have a leg to stand on in terms of logic or the facts, so you attack the source.

58

Yep, I cought the guy at the gas station logging my purchase when I fill my SUV - and they don’t do it when I fill up my car. They know when the gas is used in a 15 MPG vehicle and only the money from those types of sales are sent to the Arabs.

So the gas in your car, the carpet in your house, the plastic, your cleaners, paint, the fuel used to generate the electricity for an electric car, doesn’t count? - BS!

My SUV was made in America, by Americans, for Americans - it supports America, not the terrorists.

59

Lots of people with tiny cars get frightened by SUV’s. That is just to bad.

Some people NEED a 4X4. I agree that there are lots of people that buy them that would never go off-road, but it is their business and choice on what they wish to drive.

How much difference do you really believe it would make if we took just the SUV’s that are not used for SUV purposes and replaced them with what you would judge as a more appropriate sized vehicle?

60

[quote]
Some people NEED a 4X4.

[quote]

bull f’n $h!t, no body needs a 4x4. We (humans) survived through 1000’s of years without a 4x4 and we will continue to do so with or without them.

Some people WANT a 4x4 - and this is America, you want it, you have th emeans of getting one, more power to you - their ain’t nothing wrong with that.

Just my own personal input - Because of all the SUV’s and such running around and @$$hole drivers driving them like little sports cars, I personally will not get a small car - I want something BIG AND HEAVY for my own protection. If SUV’s were not so popular I would be more inclined to get a small, fuel efficient car - then again maybe not as I like the extra room too.