I am enrolled in an MD/PhD program. We start in medical school, go through 2 years of it (1.5 years of classes and 6 months of clinics) before we start graduate school. We then do a full PhD and return to finish 1 more year in the clincs.
While, technically, medical students who have finished graduate school and are finishing their last year can be referred to as “doctor”, in these parts it is considered a misrepresentation of the facts and is highly frowned upon. We have a doctorate, but to a patient (and to a resident or attending physician) in a hospital, the term “doctor” is reserved for physicians.
Again, it is all a question of context. There are a lot of informed consent rules and ethics rules about how we address ourselves in medical school (always as Student Doctor or Mr/Mrs or just “my name is Ed, and I am a medical student.” Medical schools and physicians tend to be picky about this – one can get in a lot of trouble for violating ethics codes and not giving correct informed consent. So we don’t refer to ourselves as doctor until we get our MD. Misconstruing yourself is not technically illegal, but it is treading on very thin ice. It also is IMHO immoral as you are giving advice with more implied credence than your actual training.
Agreed! Why should it be appropriate for MD’s to be called Doctor, but not Ph.D.'s? They worked hard at those degrees. They earned them!
Of course, some would say that Ph.D.'s are not real doctors, but this is just a cultural misperception. Common folk are used to thinking of physicians as real doctors, but that doesn’t make Ph.D.-holders any less deserving of that title. Heck, it was applied to Ph.D.-types long before it was applied to medical types! (I see that Ivorybill already explained that point.)
Of course, most Ph.D.'s that I know don’t feel obligated to use the title in casual conversation, but that hardly makes it inappropriate.
Not only that, but Germans will refer to a person with two doctoral-level degrees as “Doktor Doktor.” In the most extreme example of a married woman in an overeducated family, one could properly be addressed as “Doktor Doktor Frau Doktor Doktor X.”
Anyway, I was raised in the snooty school of “Ph.D.'s are like noses - it’s only conspicuous when you don’t have one.” I do put it on my business card now (because I’m in a job where they are useful, but far from the norm), but I don’t ever refer to myself as Doctor. In fact, I don’t ever refer to myself by any title at all, but just by my name.
The reason it is inappropriate to call PhDs Doctors in non professional situations is one is simply lead to believe the person in question is an MD or a DO.
You are misleading people. Yes I know PhDs are “doctors” in some sense but when people hear “doctor” it brings up a notion of medicine.
The same way when you say “gay” no one thinks of happy anymore.
What, not one person is gonna mention the J.D. degree? Hmph! What the hell am I going to law school for…
Anyway, the rule of thumb is, whatever the person prefers. All of my teachers, of course, have J.D. degrees, but not a one likes to be addressed as “Doctor”; they all prefer “Professor” or “Dean”, depending on their position in the faculty (unlike at the undergrad level, where “Doctor” was the preferred form of address).
One of my teachers, though, is new to the profession and prefers to be addressed as “Mr. Krier” rather than “Professor”. He gets this funny look on his face when we call him a professor. heh.
As for me, well, when I graduate I’m gonna make my brother call me “Doctor”. Everyone else can call me “Max”.
My paw makes fun of one of his classmates from law school who refers to himself as “doctor.” I got the sense that the term is used, if at all, only in an academic atmosphere (referring to a proffessor).
JD’s who want to be called “Doctor” are pathetic (I know you’re joking Max Torque – I’m not taking a shot at you). I also think they are misleading people. First of all, a lot of people don’t know that a lawyer is a Juris Doctor. Secondly, traditionally the profession does not use the term “Doctor” – academically or otherwise. So if a lawyer uses “Doctor” I believe it misleads people into believing that person has more education than he really does.
I knew we’d get around to the J.D. sooner or later. In a prior thread on this subject, the J.D. degree came up as well, and I’ll give you my answer from there.
On a related note, I believe that in Great Britain and other Commonwealth countries, physicians will often hold the M.B. (Bachelor of Medicine) degree, rather than an M.D. Does anyone know about this practice, and the way these people are addressed?
Several of your lecturers seem to be under the misapprehension that they can call themselves professors. This is typically a rank given to members of internationally recognized universities and societies, e.g. The Royal Society for Chemistry, for outstanding achievements.
I have two doctorates and would be incredibly honoured to call myself a professor, but this is unlikely to happen, at least, not for a long time!
Back to the OP though: here in the U.K. it is considered correct etiquette to call anyone with a doctorate, doctor, unless your are on familiar terms with them, in which case you probably just call them by name anyway, so it makes this redundant.
However, medical doctors are distinguished in certain ways. They have seperate forms to fill in if they board aircraft, just in case there is an emergency, and are often given priority seating. They’re also the only people that raise their hands whenever the cry, “Is there a doctor in the house?” is exclaimed!
More confusion arises when someone has other ranks to take into consideration. If a priest has a doctorate in divinity and also has the honour of being knighted, then his title would The Reverend Doctor Sir Jon Doe D.D. What would call him? Sir? Doctor? Reverend? I think the “Sir” holds the most prestige, is that right?
I agree, but you’d better call him Sir Jon, not just Sir.
And on the topic of lawyers in the U.S., they’ve already grabbed “Esquire” - it would be greedy to go for “Doctor,” too [insert obligatory lawyer joke here]. Although when I pass the bar, I’ll be a lawyer with a Ph.D. If I were the title-wielding type, could I be Dr. ENugent, Esq.?
I’ve not heard of an M.B. I am fairly sure that you do need an M.D. in order to practice medicine in Britain. (Although there seems to be more leeway in dentistry and vetinary science. I’m not sure what the rules are in those cases.)
To my mind, that merely indicates ignorance or carelessness on the part of the listener. It is already common knowledge that Ph.D.'s (and Sc.D.'s) are known as “doctors.” If someone recklessly assumes that Dr. Smith is a physician, that’s his or her own fault.
Besides which, your scenario only applies in situations where other parties are present – parties who might mistake the Ph.D.-holder for an M.D. It certainly does not mean that we shouldn’t refer to that person as “Doctor” in all non-professional situations.
And when some people hear “captain,” they automatically think of a naval officer. Should we bend over backwards so that these people won’t be confused by Army captains and those of civilian ships?
There certainly is reason to be cautious in referring to a Ph.D. as “Doctor.” However, should we really pander to the lowest common denominator – routinely assuming that our audience is reckless and/or ignorant? I don’t think so.
The title “Doctor” is one of respect, and most Ph.D.'s certainly deserve a measure of respect. It’s rather absurd to accord this title to M.D.'s in social situations, while depriving Ph.D.'s of that same gesture of respect – especially since this term more accurately applies to the Ph.D. community.
Seriously though, I think that in a medical emergency, most people would understand that people would be yelling for a physician, rather than a non-medical doctor. However, in social situations, there is no logical rationale for making such an assumption.
I agree. There really is no reason not to address a doctor of philosophy with the title of “doctor”. Most PhDs consider it rude to be referred to as “Mr.” or “Ms.”
In The Insider, Dr. Jeffrey Wigand (PhD in biochem from SUNY Buffalo) is quite insistent on the use of the title. Especially after being called “Mr. Wigand”.
Besides, pop culture is full of references to non-MDs with the title “Doctor”. I mean correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think any of the following are MDs or DOs:
Dr. Henry “Indiana” Jones
Dr. No
Dr. Who
Dr. Octopus
Dr. Bruce Banner
Dr. Dre (kidding, kidding)
Anyway, calling a PhD “Mr.” under any circumstances is rather disrespectful.
Marine Biologist. He was a great teacher, and had a great rapport with his students. Protocol, when I was growing up, required that his students call him Dr. He didn’t really care too much what anyone called him, as long as you could pull up nets at 3 AM, but most of his students in the 70’s respectfully called him Dr. He truly encouraged them to call him by his given name; oddly enough, for a marine biologist, Gil, but most students still called him Dr.-, out of respect.
It really was a matter of respect, I think, although he does still have the secret currency of Philbert among certain New England Mollusk and Shark experticants…
Good point in some ways, but (over here in Britain, anyway) having a PhD means you’re a “real” doctor - MDs (MBChBs) are called doctor as a purely honorary title, since they don’t actually have a doctorate. It seems a bit unfair to accuse PhDs of misleading people when all they’re doing is using a title they have earned - it’s not their fault that this may be misinterpreted.
