I think it’s a matter of perspective. It’s one thing if someone doesn’t know that another person is a Ph.D., or if that person doesn’t remember. In casual usage, it’s no big deal. However, to repeatedly and consistently refer to a doctor as “Mister” is kinda gauche. There’s no imperative need to use the title, but neither is there any good reason not to.
Once again, consider the MD counterparts. Everyone refers to them as “Doctor,” even in social situations. Why should MD’s be granted this honor, while the more accomplished “real” doctors aren’t?
I can assure you that I understood the OP quite well. However, some subsequent postings alleged that PhD’s should not use the title at all – singly or otherwise – outside of professional contexts. (Consider the “Dr Laura” example, and the following statement: “It is my understanding that you only address PhDs in work settings as Doctor. Dr Smith my professor but Mr Smith at home.”)
In addition to being plain wrong, these remarks kicked off further discussion that departed from the OP’s intent.
I’m gonna have to disagree with her on that one. I can think of several situations in which it would be quite rude to call someone “Mister [fill-in-the-last-name].”
Catholic priests, for example, are never referred to as “Mister O’Reilly.” Even non-Catholics are expected to accord them that level of respect. To deliberatly omit the honorific would raise innumerable eyebrows – Catholic or otherwise.
Also consider high-ranking military officers. It would be quite rude to refer to a certain individual as “Mister Colin Powell.” Ditto for members of Congress. And just imagine the uproar if a news reporter were to habitually refer to a certain civil rights leader as “MISTER Martin Luther King!”
I don’t know what the context of Miss Manners’ quote was, so I don’t know quite what she meant by that. Still, I can’t imagine that she’d consider it perfectly acceptable to use “Mister” in the aforementioned instances.
BTW, I do consider it less gauche to treat a PhD in that manner; however, I think the point remains. Since there’s no good reason to drop the “Doctor” title, the most respectful approach is to refer to them by that title – unless of course, the PhD. requests otherwise.
No, I don’t believe that most of us misunderstood the OP - it’s just that the etiquette assumptions made by some radio talk show hosts is a rather limited topic except as an example of the wider (and more interesting) confusion over the use of doctoral titles.
The one point which does need to be clarified is what we mean by ‘social’. I think most of us can agree that no one uses or wishes others to use the title ‘doctor’ in informal situations. (Whether radio talk shows are an informal situation is a question I will leave others to ponder.) This principle indeed applies to all but the grandest of titles. What instead is at issue is the status of the old rule that the title of doctor should not be used in social contexts, when social contexts meant the sort of occasions when even today some believe strict rules of etiquette apply. In other words, should the title be used on wedding invitations, place setting cards, Christmas cards, personal headed notepaper etc. One of the reasons why this was originally a problem was that it could have been argued that those with a PhD should take precedence over those with lesser degrees, in the way that had always been true for doctors of divinity. By refusing to recognise these new-fangled degrees, society hostesses prevented mere academics claiming precedence over the other gentlemen who were present. This consideration has now been forgotten, leaving the rule without any obvious justification. Saying that the matter should be left to the discretion of each individual is not much help to someone tackling one of the minor tasks (see above) for which clear etiquette rules can offer reassurance. Not a problem of earth-shattering significance, but one which may temporarily worry some people.
Well, I suspect the PhD’s you’ve consulted don’t represent the universe of views. I and all of my friends with PhD’s prefer not to use the title Dr. in social situations. And it would seriously bug me if, for example, one of my professors were to address me as Dr. Nugent instead of Ms. Nugent in class, since few of my classmates have doctoral level degrees, and I see no reason to single me out. (The exception was in Family Law, where occasionally a medical question would be addressed to the MD in the class, and we tended to call him Dr. Kevin when asking the question :)).
FTR, I do not consider myself more accomplished than an MD. Frankly, I think my PhD was a lot easier to get than the MD was for my friends who have it. And social usage is a crazy quilt of customs that don’t always have to make sense. Being addressed as Dr. is not a “prize” for the work put in - it’s just a social custom that doesn’t have to have a lot of meaning behind it.
The more an individual insists on being addressed as “Doctor” (outside of strictly professional situations) the more I think the individual has deep-seated feelings of inadequacy and the whole point of them getting a doctorate must have been some kind of overcompensation, the equivalent of the person saying to the world “see, I must be OK, they made me a Doctor!”
Since this thread has turned into a referendum on whether to address Ph.D.'s as “Doctor —”, I’ll chime in with my two cents.
I got my Ph.D. two years ago, and when I was in school, I thought it would be hella cool to be referred to as “Doctor”. In fact, when my students (I was a teaching assistant) called me “Dr. Gent” or “Professor Gent” by mistake, I got all warm inside.
But then a funny thing happened - I finished my degree and went to work for a company where maybe 1 in 20 people has a Ph.D. It’s custom in this company to use first names, so I didn’t get called “Doctor” much. But then, I noticed that whenever I was called upon to deal with a customer, I was loudly and obviously introduced as “Doctor Gent”, so as to impress the customer with my superior abilities. That, I do not care for. It makes me uncomfortable to be referred to as “Doctor” only in contexts where it is meant to elevate me in the eyes of another (and therefore put pressure on me).
My wife is an M.D. I noticed that when she was in med school, the students were often introduced to patients as “Dr. —”. That’s just plain fraudulent.
“but (over here in Britain, anyway) having a PhD means you’re a “real” doctor - MDs (MBChBs) are called doctor as a purely honorary title, since they don’t actually have a doctorate.” - Katie
I have always heard that in the U.K., only physicians are addressed as “doctor” and that surgeons are called “mister.”
“I’ve not heard of an M.B.” - Twitch
If a Dr Dr in the U.K. has never heard of an M.B. I can only assume that the degree has been abandoned in the U.K. but I have run into many MBs and ChBs from former British colonies (other than the U.S. and Canada). MB is bachelor of medicine and ChB is bachelor of surgery.
An assistant Professor of Neurosurgery at NYU Medical Center lists himself on his website as “Peter D. Le Roux, MB., ChB., M.D.” (He’s spent a lot of time in school in the U.S. and abroad.)
This thread is getting farther and farther from GQ. Ideally, I’d like it to stay on the original topic of the use of the title standing alone, but GQ discussion of the use of the title “Dr.” in place of “Mr.” or “Ms.” or whatever is still perfectly possible, with references to sources such as Miss Manners, or various style guides, or the like, or even annecdotes of personal experience concerning the actual practice or lack thereof of such customs. However, once you start getting into “Dammnit, I deserve that respect!” and “Anyone who insists on it has feelings of inadequacy”, we’re really getting pretty deep into Great Debates. I’ll be watching this thread pretty closely to see what to do with it.
[Moderator watch OFF]
Meanwhile, one of those annecdotes I mentioned above: In my experience, I’ve never seen anyone knowingly address a PhD as “Mister Smith” or “Mrs. Jones”. Usually, either the first name alone (in informal contexts) or the first and last name (without any title) works just fine, as is the case for a person of any title. In situations where a person without a doctorate would be called “Mr. Smith”, in my experience, the doctor is always called “Dr. Smith”. I don’t know if there’s justification for this in the formal rules of etiquette, and it may vary from place to place.
Not really–it’s just sort of a custom. The thought is that in this context, “Doctor” is referring more to the job someone is doing than the degree he holds. It is also something of a ego-booster for medical students, who need all the confidence they can get.
Oddly enough, my textbook on medical interviewing (the standard one for med students) says that it’s OK for a student to insist that patients call him “Doctor”, if he explains that he is near the end of his training. I totally disagree with that, but that’s what it says.
I’m often introduced as “Dr.” by the residents and attendings. It tends to occur more in the older and younger doctors–apparently there was a time when the custom fell out of favor. I would never introduce myself as “Dr.” If patients call me “Dr.”, I always point out that I am a medical student and not an MD just yet; they usually just shrug their shoulders and call me “Dr.” anyway. If they ask what to call me, I tell them “Just don’t call me late for dinner!” (The older folks eat that one up.)
I’d be lying if I said that I don’t enjoy being called “Dr.”, but it’s not the end-all, be-all of my existence.
As for PhDs, I do call them “Dr.” both professionally and socially, because I hold respect for their degrees and I don’t want them to think that I consider their degree to be less than an MD (which I don’t). I would also never correct anyone who called me “Mr.” (after I have my MD, that is), either professionally or socially, unless I had a good reason.
I actually have the feeling that medical doctors shouldn’t have a title in social circles (outside the doctor’s office). Why do they, anyway? Are they that grand and important?
Social titles went out in the US when we won the Revolutionary War.
Titles are something that belong within an organization.
I’m a first year undergraduate right now, and I’ve kinda sight my sights on a phD, which means another seven years’ study, minimum, which from this angle looks at least as hard as medical school. Once I get there, IF I get there, I’ve a feeling my own tendency will be to loudly insist that everyone call me by my first name (thus demonstrating both world-shaking humility AND a doctorate! Ha!). I always called my old tutor “Dr” and she never complained… other students called her “Sue” and I don’t think she ever objected to that either. One guy got into trouble for calling her “Dave”, but that was an isolated incident.
However, I want to ask about a slightly different area, and I’d be really interested to know what people (especially in the US) think about respect in general. I mean, I ALWAYS make a point of calling men “Sir” if they’re more than, say, twenty years my senior. It gives them a chance to take a humbler position if they want, by asking to be called something else (I take this as a real sign of respect myself), but isn’t it always better to be as polite as possible at first? Ever notice that there’s always a polite option?
As for movies, which are what will inevitably dictate the way the world finally chooses to go, Indiana Jones drops the “Doctor” and becomes “Indy” whenever he starts doing cool stuff. Maybe it’s a question not so much of social/professional situations, which are both all about respect and grace, but about the world of THEORY (my divinity faculty) and the world of REALITY (the mission field, where I’m going) where you don’t care what they call you because there’s a tiger chasing you!
And one last thing. Anybody have any proof that Lord Vader actually did anything to deserve that peerage? It can’t be hereditary because his mum’s a slave. If Episode II doesn’t deal with it I shall be writing a rather stiff letter to the House of Lords.
Actually, that would be a bit much. It is not very unusual, however for people prefix their names with one Prof. and two Dr. titles:
Herr Prof. Dr. Dr. X or Frau Prof. Dr. Dr. X
Professors with one doctor are then: Herr/Frau Prof. Dr. X.
Ironically, in normal spoken usage at universities (at least in PhD type departments) the professors and doctors are only called Herr X or Frau X! But almost never by their first names (except perhaps with much advanced students after long periods of working together.)
I should add that in German-speaking countries, “Professor” is a title achieved only after writing a second dissertation called a “Habilitation”, and after being given a full professorial position at a university. (Without the position, the title is “only” Dr. habil.)
Maybe. Or maybe the PhD’s you hang around with are the one’s who don’t.
I think you’re confusing two separate issues – what PhD’s prefer to be called, and whether they should be properly called “Mister” (or Miss, or Mrs, or Ms).
My father has a doctorate, and he prefers to be called by his first name. However, NOBODY calls him “Mr. Surname.” Everyone who’s aware of his standing calls him “Doctor Surname.”
The fact that many PhD’s prefer not to use this title doesn’t mean that we should simply drop it. Once again, why should we respect MD’s in this fashion, but display less regard for their more accomplished PhD counterparts?
Ultimately, that’s what it boils down to. Is their degree less than an MD, and do they deserve it less? If not, then there’s really no good reason for lopsided treatment.
Of course, if they’d rather not be addressed by that title, that’s fine too – but in such situations, their first name or full name should suffice.
The misapprehension may be yours. Like so many terms, “professor” means something different in the US and Canada from what it means in the UK. My father has the rank of professor at a Canadian university. At that school the term “lecturer” applies to temporary, non-tenure track positions. However, use of these terms differs from university to university and college to college in the US and Canada as well. In order to know what title to give someone you need to know which system you’re dealing with. The same may be true of the title “doctor” (I don’t know. I’m only an A.B.D. )
I am a real doctor. I earned a doctorate in Psychology and it took me longer than med school would have.
However, I do not insist on being called “Doctor” I always tell people I am not a medical doctor.
Why?
Well, once in the wee hours of the morning the super knocked on our door. He was having a high blood pressure crisis and
wanted me to help. He communicated in broken English.
I had to explain to him that I wasn’t “that kind” of doctor.
Ministry of Titles and Peerages
House of Lords
Government Complex
Corruscant
Corruscant System
As to what Lord Vader did to earn the title, my suspiscion is that he crushed the tracheae of everyone who didn’t call him that. I believe that most of the noble peerages have a special rule for granted titles in that situation.
That’s fine, but once again, that’s not the topic at hand.
You may not prefer to be called doctor, and I gather that most PhD’s feel the same way. However, that doesn’t mean we should just call them “Mister Jones” when a title is used. We should either call them “Doctor Jones” or just use their name without any title attached.
That’s different, though. You have a specific reason to be called “Ms” instead of “Doctor,” and presumably, you’ve articulated this reason. In such cases – sure, we should call you “Ms Nugent” instead. However, in other situations, it would be crass and presumptuous for someone to assume that it’s okay to just call you “Ms.”
As for me, I have a Ph.D. Most of my friends don’t know about this, and I never refer to myself as “Doctor V” in social situations. However, it also irritates me when people take it upon themselves to call me “Mr V” instead. When in doubt, why not simply ask which title I’d prefer?
For example, I serve on the board of directors of a local charity. One day, a staff member typed up a letter for me to sign – and she put my name down as “Mr. D V,” even though she knew about my doctorate. That irritated the HECK out of me! As I said, I don’t normally inform people of my Ph.D., but doggone it, don’t presume that I want to be called Mister instead!
Either
Just use my name (which is preferable in 99% of circumstances), or
Call me “Doctor V” until otherwise corrected, or
Ask me which title I’d prefer to use. 99% of the time, I ask people to drop the title altogether.
Incidentally, I knew a Catholic priest who abided by similar rules. As a matter of courtesy, he was called “Father Villarin” in social situations; however, he normally asked friends to just call him by his nickname. It would have been extremely crass for someone to just call him “Mister Villarin” without any permission.
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