I thought I was clear about the rules, ie that it was permissible now to call another poster a troll in The Pit (though nowhere else). But this post by tomndebb makes me uncertain.
I extract:
The distinction is unclear to me. It’s OK to call someone a troll if you’re angry and you’re not really serious? But if you mean it then it’s not?
Can anyone clarify?
It’s not against the rules to call someone a “troll” as a perjorative – it was silly to have a rule about it the Pit where people routinely call one another much more vile things.
It IS against the rules to accuse someone of being a “Troll” – someone who trolls the message board, who makes posts designed to aggravate and annoy, who posts idiotically to get attention and start fights and etc. Which is what Guin was doing. If you think someone is trolling the board the way to report such bad behavior is to write us and tell us so we can investigate the matter.
That’s the difference. Yes, it’s confusing. Sorry about that.
Perhaps you should go read the posted Pit rules before you go making statements like that:
This is the single most nonsensical rule on a message board that I have ever seen, not to mention that it doesn’t square at all with the actual rule cited by Q.E.D. above. WTF?
Yes. This makes no sense. You can call someone a troll, but you can’t call someone a troll. Not only is it confusing, but it is also confusing.
The thread 2.5 inches is a troll. went on for four pages without getting shut down. A search for “troll” in Pit thread titles show a few more. If Tuba is correctly describing a rule, it is not getting enforced.
Lemme try to clarify what Tuba meant.
If you suspect someone is trolling in a pit thread (meaning in the context of the discussion in that thread the person is trolling) you may call them a troll.
If you suspect someone is only on the boards to troll then you may not call them that and you should foremostly (I just made that word up) report them.
This isn’t quite my understanding of the rules, at least as it pertains to the Pit. Back when the rule was changed, we decided to no longer make it against the rules for users to call each other trolls (or Trolls or whatever) in the Pit, but we still put a request into the rules that if you truly think someone is a Troll (e.g. a guest starting 50 threads saying lol group X should be killed lol), to simply report the post rather than giving them attention. The idea was that, although we won’t warn you for pointing out a Troll is trolling, it helps us out if people don’t feed them so we ask you guys not to do that.
That would only make sense if the thread Voyager linked to were titled, “I pre-emptively pit 2.5 inches for trolling he will do in the future in this thread that I am now starting.” But it isn’t, so it doesn’t.
Now this makes sense. Thanks, Giraffe.
The rule change thread (found - BTW - using the search term “dildo”): [snip] Rule on troll-calling changed! said:
I do have another question that arose from the Tony Snow death Pit thread.
We had a poster make an outrageous statement about how glad he was that Tony had died and hoped he suffered. It appeared that the ruling was since he believed what he was saying, he wasn’t trolling.
So, all you have to do is say “But I really think this way!” to get away with making vicious or provacative statements?
No, we have to believe they really think that way. Some trolls admit to doing it on purpose but others don’t.
Maybe she’s not only read the statement in the rules post, but has also read the actual post by TVeblen on the subject. Thank-you hawthorne for pulling it up, although it should be noted that it is linked in the very portion of the “rules” post that Q.E.D. quoted (it might have been helpful if that link had survived when the quote tags were added in his post here).
This statement by Veb makes perfect sense, and is exactly what Tuba is describing. Using the term “troll!” as an epithet is not forbidden; it is no more harmful than any other invective hurled about in The Pit. But there is a difference between using the term as a pejorative epithet and making an actual accusation of trolling activity. In the latter case, you are not “[j]ust dubbing someone or something as trollish …” [emphasis added] Instead, you are doing something that should be accomplished by the mechanism of reporting posts.
I would have to say that the “clarification” appended to the Pit Rules post should probably be clarified so that others are not unintentionally confused, as apparently Q.E.D. was.
Yeah, kinda. As Marley23 points out, it has to be believable. Someone who does nothing but post their outrageously provocative opinions will still run into trouble, no matter how sincere they claim to be.
The problem with the trolling rule is that we want to screen out the dingleberries while stifling as few viewpoints as possible. Note that we’re not endorsing these views by not punishing the people, we just think that the best way to handle them is via community debate and discussion (and, if necessary, ridicule), not administrative fiat.
I think the only real confusion was the fact that TubaDiva described our request that people report actual trolling trolls as a rule, rather than a request. As I said, I believe that to be incorrect. Of course, since to my knowledge no one has ever been warned for engaging a troll rather than reporting it, it’s a pretty academic issue, IMO.
Well, that would be fine and all, but the statement by Veb makes no such distinction.
Like hajario, i think Tuba’s explanation is completely bizarre, and does not accord at all with how the rules are actually written. And , in the months since the rules were changed, this is the first place i’ve any seen any suggestion of a distinction between calling someone a small-t troll, and calling someone a capital-T Troll.
Also, as Voyager noted, the thread about 2.5 Inches went on for 4 pages without mod action, and was specifically devoted to a discussion about whether the poster is question was a Troll (and not just a troll).
It’s EXACTLY what Veb said. What part of that are you missing?
He says you can call someone a troll now. He says that this doesn’t replace the reporting function. He then says, and this is the crucial part, “dubbing someone or something as trollish” won’t get official action.
Now “dubbing” someone means naming them. In other words, you can use it as an epithet, and it’s not gonna get you warned. But the reporting function still exists to report those whose activities are to be complained of.
So, the statement means: call someone a troll as a name if you like (in the pit only!), but report trolls if you feel you must complain about their behavior.
I have to admit some of the distinctions made are positively Jesuitucal in their casuistry and I’m not a hell of a lot wiser than before. What I am gathering though is that, whatever class or species of troll you have in your sights in the Pit, you won’t be committing a rule breach by labelling him or her as such, whether they turn out to be a real troll, a demi-troll, an occasional troll or a boojum.
Your summary of Veb’s position seems reasonable, but in your previous post you said that it was “exactly what Tuba is describing.”
But it’s not.
Tuba said:
Where in Veb’s post does it say, or even suggest, that “It IS against the rules to accuse someone of being a ‘Troll’.” Veb said that certain accusation won’t necessarily attract Mod action, but Veb never said that calling someone a capital-T Troll was against the (new) rules.