This is basically the classic theological question of “Predestination or Freewill?” What in your opinion on this or if you’re nonreligious what in your opinion do you think the Bible says on it?
What, no Hobbesianism option?!
Nonreligious.
I don’t think you should worry about it, because the Bible will say whatever you want it to say, if you study it hard enough.
As I understand it, Calvin considered the doctrine of predestination a logically necessary implication of God’s omniscience. His reasoning may be defensible if that premise is granted. But, it would take a theologian trained in the European Christian intellectual tradition derived from classical Greek philosophy to come up with it. The prophets and the apostles were largely ignorant of or indifferent to that sort of thing, and I don’t think there’s a single verse of Scripture that even implies predestination.
Paul in Romans 8:29-30 and Epehsians 1:5, 10 did talk about Christians being predestined to come to & grow in Christ. Also, in Romans 9-11, he discussed those chosen or not by God for various purposes, bringing up Jacob vs. Esau, the Pharoah of Exodus, and the then-relevant situation of Israel, Gentiles & the Christian Church. These passages were the springboard out of which Augustine, then Calvin, developed their teachings on Divine sovereignty & human inability in salvation. However, Paul does not develop the argument to the extent that they did.
Myself- I think the whole Bible, Old & New Testaments, puts such emphasis on chosing God’s path & rejecting sinful beliefs & practices that some degree of human freedom & ability to choose must exist. Thus, I think Arminianism has a better grasp on the Bible’s entire counsel.
I believe in free will. I feel strangely compelled to do so.
Mark 14:30 - “And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.”
This is hardly the only instance where the actions of humans (individuals and groups) are predicted in bible. If God and Jesus are able to determine these outcomes in advance, then humans are not non-deterministic. Ergo free will for humans (and cocks) is definitively ruled out by the bible.
ETA: I am not a theist and don’t actually consider the bible a reliable source of information about reality. But within the context of the biblical narrative, free will is a no-go.
Nonreligious. I don’t think predictions, even very accurate predictions, are necessarily contradictory to free will. If you know someone very well, then you can have a fair guess at what they’re going to do in certain situations. If you knew everyone very well, then you’d pretty much be able to predict any situation.
I’ve heard this, but it presumes that God/Jesus is just guessing - and given the extreme specificity of some of the predictions (three times before the second crow; some dude will have left a donkey inside the gate for you to find and will be happy to sell it to you) I don’t find it to be a credible counterargument. Either God/Jesus was making actual 100% accurate foreknowledge-based predictions, or the stories have been so doctored to add accuracy and precision that they’re completely useless as narrative accounts.
I think actually you and I have gone a round on predestination vs. free will before, which didn’t really end up with either of us moved.
As a non-Christian, I would tend to consider the doctored idea correct, but even a 100% accurate foreknowledge based prediction doesn’t necessitate a lack of free will, in my book. The better the prior knowledge, the better the predictions.
I think the Apostle Paul is basically Calvinist. I think Jesus is not. As I think Paul is basically an ass, you can guess which position I would favor if I were more Christian.
Predestination, and particularly double-predestination*, always seems to have a fairly basic flaw in it: it can only encourage persons who believe in it to do whatever they were inclined to do anyway. I mean, if God decided at the beginning of time that I was not only to be denied salvation but also to be condemned to eternal damnation, then I might very reasonably decide that God is a sadistic prick, and I might as well get to thieving, raping, & murdering, because if I’m inclined to do that I am obviously pre-damned and denying my darker urges gets me jack shit no matter what.
Wouldn’t surprise me - we’ve both been around a while and nobody ever changes their mind on the internet, unless they’re just lurking.
I suppose I ought to note that I am of course talking about that ephemeral libertarian free will, rather than compatiblist free will, which we obviously have if we aren’t random or libertarian, and which functionally isn’t any different from being completely controlled by fate.
Given that, what do you suppose it means to be 100% predictable with 100% absolute certainty, regardless of the method this certainty is arrived at? Last I checked, that was pretty much the definition of being controlled by fate and lacking (libertarian) free will.
:: raises hand ::
I’ve gone from Christian deist to technical agnostic/practical atheist. Do I count?
Only if you arrived at your opinion by being soundly thrashed in a debate on the subject, and obligingly rolling over and accepting it.* I mean, I put in the ‘lurker’ escape clause for a reason - and it wasn’t to cover somebody else’s butt.
- Not to say that this doesn’t happen (give or take that I just said it doesn’t happen), but it sure ain’t common.
Calvinism is one of the most twisted theological ideas I’ve ever heard of.
So God creates everything. And he knows everything. So when he created you, he knew you were going to go to hell for all eternity, because that’s just the kind of bastard you are. In fact, because you are totally depraved, you DESERVE to be sent to hell for all eternity. And because you’re so depraved, there’s nothing you can do to save yourself, only God can do that. Except, he has chosen not to save you. No, you’re going to hell. He’s going to save these other people over there. Oh, they’re totally depraved too, and they can’t save themselves without God’s help, and they deserve to be sent to hell for all eternity. But God’s going to save them anyway, because that’s the kind of superhero he is.
But not you. Nope, you’re going to hell. Sorry kid, nothing personal, not everybody gets the undeserved gift of salvation. Actually, it is personal, because God detests sin, and so God hates you. And so you deserve to go to hell because you’re totally depraved, it’s not like you could be different or anything, because God chose for you to be totally depraved.
It’s seriously horrifying. Of course, since I’m totally depraved, that just means I’m unable to see the justice in it. If I weren’t depraved, I’d agree with God that this is the best way to handle things–create robots who have no choice but to be evil, and then punish the robots for their evil. It is literally like something a bored but malicious 12 year old boy might dream up.
That doesn’t mean it’s wrong, just because it’s horrifying. It just means that God is Cthulhu if it’s true. Of course, from God’s perspective I’m the monster. So why did he create monsters like me, doomed to cause and experience nothing but suffering? I guess I’d get the same answer Job got.
If you expected to find the bible telling you God is nice guy - well, you can, if you read selectively. But whether or not one can find evidence in the bible of God being a jerk isn’t really the question here.
All Christians cherry-pick the Bible. Some admit it; some do not.
The Bible says whatever the author of each individual passage wanted it to say. Some are into predestination, others into free will.
I think Calvinist predestination was invented so its adherents could take comfort from knowing that at least somebody was going to Hell. They were already certain that they were going to Heaven because they were so obviously special. But it wasn’t enough for them to be good themselves - they wanted to be better than somebody else. And suppose it turned out that God really did forgive all sins and let everybody into Heaven? What if nobody was damned? It was unacceptable for them to think that they might end up equal to everyone else rather than clearly superior.
I also don’t think that accurate predictions deny free will. Presumedly Jesus knew what Peter was going to choose to do. And he knew that saying it publically would not cause Peter to change his course of action. So he could safely make the prediction.
If Jesus’ prediction would have shamed Peter into not denouncing Jesus, then Jesus would have known that as well and wouldn’t have made the prediction.