Agreed and thanks for clarifying. I was trying to run through 80 odd years of Constitutional law in a few sentences. Doing so, I left out the reasonable articulable suspicion standard but it had been noted several times before.
Have you ever ridden in a trunk? Popping out is difficult, rather slow and obvious.
No, a cop certainly * can* make you do so. Now, if, on the very rare case that the rear windows cant be rolled down, then we have a problem. Just because a rare "lifeboat’ cases exists, that doesnt impede a police officer in his day to day duties. As i posted and cited, more or less a cop can order you do do anything that isnt a illegal order.
In fact, he *can *order you to open your trunk. Just that if he does so against your wishes, contraband back there isnt admissible. That doesnt mean you wont be arrested, the car impounded, the contraband confiscated and you put in jail, having to make bail and hire a lawyer. Sure, then your lawyer will get the case kicked out. You are still out $10000 in bail and lawyer fees, you car has been totally legally ripped apart and in the impound lot, and your drugs gone. Maybe, the cop might be chewed out by his Sgt.
Yes, I have.
I had no desire or need to pop out.
I think you’re missing a distinction here. Crank windows are not a “lifeboat,” they simply highlight the fact that rolling down the windows is not an order you need comply with.
You need to comply with an order to produce an ID during a traffic stop. If you don’t, you can literally be arrested for failing to comply with a lawful order. If you’re unable to produce an ID because you don’t have one, or it’s locked in a box and you don’t have the key, or your arm is broken, none of these excuses matter – you’ll still be arrested.
However, if a cop asks you to roll down your windows and you can’t because they’re crank windows, are they going to arrest you? Seems laughable. So if they can’t arrest you because of a technical issue, how are they going to arrest you if you claim that the windows are broken? And if you can just lie and say they’re broken, is it really an enforceable order? Clearly not.
Of course not. And I never said that. I would be able to articulate a perfectly justifiable reason why I did what I did.
And like I posted earlier, this kind of thing rarely comes up. It is rare that I can’t see through tinted glass with a flashlight. It is rare that I can’t see into the back seat from the drivers window. And it is very rare that someone won’t put the windows down when asked.
But if it does come up that I am not sure there is another human back there and my Spidey senses are tingling, I’m going to look. I’d much rather have any potential evidence thrown out than be dead.
I know officers who order everyone out of the car at every traffic stop. And it doesn’t matter if it is a car load of Q-tips, Junior Knowitalls, or Grandpa Beazel Neck. They make them get out and stand or sit by the car while they go back to the squad are write a cite. This allows them to look inside while the car doors are open.
I know one officer who makes the driver remain in the car, but open the door and turn so they are sitting sideways with their feet on the pavement.
I almost never do anything like that. After the stop sometimes a driver will jump out of their car and start walking back to the squad. I immediately get out and tell them to get back in their car. After the initial contact at the driver window I tell them I am going back to my squad to evaluate the information, and that it will take a few minutes and they must stay in their car while waiting. Almost everyone complies. It is very rare when someone doesn’t.
You said windows that CANT be rolled down. Crank windows are now very rare, the number of whom with black window coverings are even more rare.
Getting into weird hypotheticals is not helping. A Cop certainly can order you to lower your rear windows. It is not a illegal order. He can order you- and all the passengers- out of the vehicle and to lay on the ground. If you refuse, you can be arrested.
Lying to a police officer *is *a crime.
Under what authority can he order me to roll down windows if I refuse a search?
And let’s assume that I’m in the United States so that the law isn’t whatever the cop makes up on the spot and let’s assume I’m not obligated to forego my Constitutional rights to make things easier on the police.
Is this true? Not a federal officer, but a regular city police officer?
Yes. At least in my state it is. It’s called “Resisting or Obstructing an Officer”. It is a class A misdemeanor and punishable by both 9 months imprisonment and a $10,000 fine.946.41
It is an illegal order? Is he/she ordering you to do something against the law? If not, then he can do it. I quoted the laws and legal cites from real lawyers, not to mention the ACLU.
Now, if what you are saying is that if he arrests you for not doing it, impounds your car, puts you in handcuffs, gives you a night in jail, makes you post bail to get out, you have to hire a decent lawyer- are you asking whether or not that lawyer can get it dismissed? Yeah, quite possibly. But after all that- you have really lost , havent you?
Because any order that *isnt illegal *is gonna be legal until you get in court. Very very rarely is there the ACLU there to defend you on the spot and a judge to give the ruling.
Well, true I was a fed, and it’s always illegal there (altho oddly, the IRS gives you quite a bit of leeway to dig yourself into a hole), but I know it’s illegal in most states or localities. Might be one where it’s not.
Except you can always say you didnt do it. If you stick to that one lie, with no funny stuff, you are almost always Ok.
https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2016/12/what-are-the-penalties-for-lying-to-a-cop.html
https://www.copleyroth.com/criminal-defense/why-can-police-lie-to-you-but-you-cant-lie-to-them/
No he can’t. That is the point in being in the United States. Your legal theory boils down to “He has a gun and handcuffs, so yes. You pretty much have to do anything he sez.”
Let me put it this way. A cop comes up to your door in your house and demands that you open the door and let him look around your house. That is not an illegal act so you are claiming you MUST comply. The 4th Amendment does not exist?
It is an illegal act. So, you are wrong there. “Illegal search and seizure”.
and it’s not “MY” theory, it is what the lawyers and the ACLU I cited have said, and so have police officers here.
Find a SDMB lawyer and have him say the opposite, then.
Apples and oranges. During a traffic stop you, your vehicle, and all passengers in the vehicle are being temporarily seized. I have the duty to know how many people I have detained. No, I can’t just pop the trunk. Unless I have reason to believe someone is in there.
And as I have said umpteen times, if the windows are tinted to an illegal degree I can insist they be put down before your resume operating on a public road.
But this is so silly. Stuff like this never comes up. I don’t remember the last time I couldn’t view the back seat from the drivers door.
Thanks, but that means if the cop asks “Any drugs in the car?” and the driver says “No” but then the cop finds drugs, the driver could also be charged for lying to the cop?
No, you can state a denial of a crime. Usually. ianal.
Can the officer demand that you hop on one foot while whistling the Star Spangled Banner? That’s not “illegal.”
An act in violation of the constitution is illegal. It may not be criminal. These are two different concepts.
None of your cites say that. Here is what your cites say
DO make sure the officer knows you do not agree to be searched (they might search you anyway, but make your opposition known). Say “I do not consent to a search.”
DON’T forget that police are legally allowed to lie, intimidate, and bluff.
DO say “I do not consent to a search.”
404 Error
And no offense to pkbites but I don’t think that the police are ANY authority on this. Their profession* is notorious for making up shit just to fuck with people.
Do you want me to post the video of the Fresno cop who asked a white woman her name then moved on to a black woman, demanded to see her ID (she does not have to comply in California), then threw her to the ground and arrested her for not following his made-up law.
How about the latest video of a cop yelling “Gun Gun Gun” when the black man has his hands on the steering wheel THEN telling him to not move and then to move his hands [apparently for an excuse to shoot him in the face].
How about the numerous videos of cops planting evidence. Or better yet how about the numerous videos of cops that refuse to answer simple questions and intimidate the populous. You know, the video that go like this
<driver> Am I free to go?
<LEO> Sir I just want to talk to you
<driver> Am I free to go?
<LEO> Why are you out here tonight?
<driver> Am I free to go?
<LEO> Why don’t you want to answer my question
<driver> Am I free to go?
<LEO> Sir you need to answer my question (no he doesn’t)
<driver> Am I free to go?
<LEO> Sir why are you avoiding talking to me
et cetera
Plus we have phbites who has already decided that if I don’t consent to a search that he will open my door anyways and on the off chance that someone is there that he needs to yank out of my car despite all evidence to the contrary (including being able to see a person through my tint if they were there).
That being said I do value Loach’s contributions to the thread. They seem well thought out and balanced him doing his job with the rights of the driver.
- Yes I know, a few bad eggs and all.