(If you don’t know what I’m talking about, search wikipedia for “sukkah,” but I’m looking for informed answers here, if possible)
Finally having a house of our own, where we can build one, my family would like to build a sukkah. Of course sukkot snuck up on us this year, and we didn’t do any of the design, purchasing, or building that we wanted to in time. With only 2 days remaining, we wondered what we could do “on the cheap” and/or hastily.
My wife proposed the following: We buy one of these…
And we cut away the roof, making sure to leave enough fabric to cover any metal pipes that hold the top up. Then we put branches on top to form the s’chach.
My parents’ sukkah was always made of wood 2x4’s to form a frame, with tarps for walls, and the one at our shul was metal pipes, canvas walls, wooden frame on top to hold a bamboo s’chach, while the ones at the nearby Hasidic community were really solid all-wood construction. I’m not really familiar with other designs, but from googling, this seems kosher to my untrained eye.
there are 4 walls
the walls won’t move more than 3 handsbreaths. (though are walls made of screens considered walls?)
The roof will be open to the sky
the s’chach will not rest on metal.
the structure isn’t permanent
Any fatal flaw in our plan? It seems, for lack of a better term, too easy. Like someone would have thought of it before if it worked, and I would have seen one.
I’ve never heard of this but it looks interesting. The Wikipedia page makes no mention of not letting the s’chach rest on metal and in fact states: Portable sukkot made of a collapsible metal frame and cloth walls have recently become available for those who have little space, or for those who are traveling (in order to have a place to eat one’s meals).
If you’re sure about the metal part that then I’m not sure the screen tent would work. The cloth canopy part is not permanantly attached to the frame so if you were to cut most of it away you would end up with thin strips of fabric that I imagine are tough to keep in place. It might be easier to skip the canopy and maybe wrap any metal contact points with something like a natural fiber string, thin rope, or fabric.
I don’t know if I would consider the screens a proper wall. But with the canopy tent I own (very similar to the one in your link but from Target) the screen sides were an optional purpose and they also sold a “shade wall” which was simply a single panel you could hang to block whatever side the sun is on. You could get 3-4 of those and fasten them well enough that they don’t sway much.
If you look at what you’re buying there, it’s just the screen kit, meant to go along with this canopy: Robot or human?
I’m not sure if the metal support stakes – which is what those screen walls attach to – will stand on their own without the canopy roof, if you were to buy both the canopy and the screen wall kit. The canopy roof seems to be what gives the support stakes their stability and squaring.
It would almost certainly be kosher, if you could find a way to keep the s’chach off of bare metal and it wasn’t so light that it would blow over, but the construction there doesn’t seem to be what it initially appears to be.
“The s’chach may not lay directly on top of metal, …In other words the beams that support the s’chach, or the top of your walls that support the s’chach, may not be made of metal. The walls may be made of metal, and then covered with flat pieces of wood or with canvas or another firm material, and the pieces of s’chach may be laid on top of that. The s’chach may not touch the metal beneath it.”
You’re right, I think I linked to the wrong item. I don’t see it on the walmart website, but there’s a similar item that our friends bought at walmart this summer when we went camping. The screens aren’t separate from the canopy on that one. (hopefully walmart still has one in stock, here at the end of the camping season.)
I’m not so concerned about the structural issues, regarding whether the tent would still hold together without the roof or whether it would support the weight of the s’chach. Those are implementation details. I’m more concerned over whether the resulting structure would be considered a kosher sukkah, or if I’ve missed some requirement. (And for my purposes, that would mean from a Conservative Judaism point of view.)
One concern is the domed roof. All sukkot that I’ve seen have had a flat roof…
I’m with tumbledown. you certainly seem to know what is required for a sukkah to be kosher, and your question seems to be of the “This seems to good to be true; is it?” variety.
When I saw the $35 price for a ten-foot-square, I was amazed. But now that I see the $35 was only for the walls, and the frame and roof are $100, it is much more believable, while still being a great deal.
You biggest problem, as I see it, is whether it will be strong enough to support whatever s’chach you use. Keep in mind that you’re going to need something to hold the branches up. That means some sort of support beams that are longer than ten feet each. (Alternatively, you can manage with beams shorter than ten feet, if you run them diagonally.)
In short: It is a great idea and I wish you success, and I’ll be very impressed if you find something light enough that doesn’t make it collapse. Keep us posted!
My guess is that if you remove the fabric of the roof, you can leave whatever structure is forming the dome, which the walls will need for strength. And then place your s’chach below that dome, on the square formed by the tops of the four walls.
I don’t know of any halachic problem with the s’chach being in a domed shape – other than the practical problem of preventing the branches from rolling off!
You could cut away most of the roof fabric as you mentioned, but leave sections about 6-8" in width. Drape the remaining fabric over the support struts and secure with nylon zip ties (wire ties). That would ensure that none of the s’chach would come into contact with the metal.
It should stand just fine without the top. The entire frame is interconnected and accordions out. Each leg has a piece that slides up the shaft as the whole unit expands until locked into place. Once each corner is locked it’s free standing and sturdy. I would recommend staking it down.
As for the touching metal issue there is a product called Plastidip that is essentially a spray or paint on coating. Maybe you could coat the contact points with that. http://www.plastidip.com/
I would try to find a solution that avoids ruining the canopy if you’re at all interested in using the tent for other events.
See my post #4 in this thread. It’s not that it can’t have metal, it’s that the roof, or s’chach, which must be made of organic material, usually tree branches, must not rest directly on metal. As for why? Because that’s the way the Rabbis of the Talmud interpreted some brief passage of the Torah, I’d imagine.
Because the roof, the s’chach, must not contain any material that can be made tumah – ritually impure. Metals can be tumai – consider a metal utensil that comes in contact with trefe.
From where does this rule come?
The whole purpose of sukkoh is to leave the comfort and safety of the carefully constructed and engineered house and live in a fragile, temporary structure. As we learn from the Gemara, tractate sukkot 14b, the commentaries agree that the rule about using only natural materials exists as a preventative one, to ensure that ordinary roofing material is never used. This forces and emphasizes the temporary and fragile nature of the structure.
Also, the use of metal in the roof implies a more solid and permanant structure.
I’m more concerned over whether the resulting structure would be considered a kosher sukkah, or if I’ve missed some requirement. (And for my purposes, that would mean from a Conservative Judaism point of view.)
