Can Afghans govern themselves?

I don’t think Kipling’s racism is a tangent. The only support sailor has given for his assertion that Afghans are incapable of governing themselves is that Kipling said they were 100 years ago. If Kipling’s racism lead him to believe that all non-white people* were incapable of governing themselves, that obviously has an impact on sailor’s argument.

China Guy, what is it that makes you think White Man’s Burden was meant to be sarcastic? I don’t think I’ve ever heard that theory tossed out. There were certainly people of Kipling’s time that believed that white people had a sacred duty to subjugate native peoples for their own good.

Also, you repeated what sailor said about it being a different time. That is true, and I don’t think too badly of Kipling for that very reason. But the opinions of that different time should not be used to support a debate about modern times.

–John
*sailor points out that the Afghans are classified as Caucasians. However, I sincerely doubt that they were considered “white” in the eyes of the British Empire at the time.

China Guy, I agree with you. I have heard a lot of criticism of Kipling and almost always it is by people who have not read his works. Often I hear people using the “East is East, West is West and never the twain shall meet” quote to mean the exact opposite of what it means in the poem. Most people who criticise “The White Man’s Burden” have not read it. You have to read a lot of his work and then you will understand where he is coming from but there are too many people who will judge the book by the cover.

I grew up as kid with my father reading me stories from “Just So Stories” and “The Jungle Books” and later went on to read all his other works. I still read them again and again I cannot think of any place where he presents Asians negatively, either as evil or less intelligent or anything like that. On the contrary, I generally feel he loves those places and cultures where he grew up, and that is why he wrote so much about them. He would not write so much about people he disliked. This not incompatible with his feeling that British culture and form of government was superior, a point which I happen to agree with. But I do not see anywhere that he shows British people are superior to Asian people. Nowhere. He speaks about them with love and respect.

I get very tired of people throwing around the label of “racist” to disqualify anything they disagree with. You do not think the government of Mexico is as good as the Government of the USA? Then you must be a racist! Sheesh!

Yue Han, look, what you think of Kipling is totally irrelevant. All my sources agree with him in that 100 years ago Afghanistan was a place with bad to no government. If you disagree with that statement please provide some proof to support your assertion and stop attacking Kipling. Show some proof that Afghanistan was a well governed country 100 years ago. OK? Kipling could have been a racist, a pedophile and a wife beater and still be right about Afghanistan. Please stick to Afghanistan and forget Kipling. Please show me Afghanistan was well governed 100 years ago.

**You don’t have any other sources. **

The only source you’ve posted for Afghanis being unable to self-govern is that Kipling said so. If you have other sources, post them.

You are asserting Afghanis cannot self-govern. I do not have to provide evidence that they can, you have to provide evidence that they cannot.

Your evidence was ‘Kipling said so in this story.’ If Kipling said that because he was a racist and not because it was true, then you have no evidence whatsoever. Whether or not Kipling is a racist is central to this debate until you post some other evidence to back up your assertions.

On the other hand, I’m not going to try and debate on Kipling anymore. If you can look at a poem about how White people should subjugate natives for their own good and say, “That’s not racist,” then I don’t know how to even go on.

–John

>> I’m not going to try and debate on Kipling anymore

Yue Han, I am quite relieved after reading that as I have little interest in discussing Kiping with you. I would rather do that with someone who has actually read his works.

>> You don’t have any other sources.

Well, I have a general impression from everything I have read in the media which supports the fact that Afghanistan has never really had any kind of central government which had actual and effective control of the country. I am away from Washington now, so I do not have access to it but I have a book there which is an excellent reference book for history of any country of the world and I highly recommend it. It is An Encyclopedia of World History by William L Langer, Houghton Mifflin 1972 5th Ed. I use it continually for reference and it is an excellent work. Some months ago I looked up Afghanistan and it pretty much boils down to what I have said: No strong central government and mostly ethnic groups and warlords quite independent from any nominal central government. These warlords would form alliances as they found convenient and would change sides just as easily if they found it to be in their interest.

From a quick Net search I get:
1919- Habibullah is assassinated, and succeeded by his son Amanullah
1929- Amanullah Khan is overthrown by Habibullah Kalakani.
1929- Habibullah Kalakani, along with his supporters, and a few supporters of Amanullah Khan are killed by Nadir Khan.
1930- Pro-Amanullah Khan uprising put down by Nadir Khan
1933- Nadir Khan assassinated and his son, Zahir, inherits the throne. He rules until 1973.
1973- Zahir Shah is on vacation in Europe, when his government is overthrown in a military coup headed by Daoud Khan and PDPA (Afghan Communist Party).
1978- Bloody Communist coup: Daoud is killed, Taraki is named President, and Karmal becomes his deputy Prime Minister. Tensions rise.
Mass arrests, tortures, and arrests takes place.
1978 to Present: Civil war. In 1978 some group came to Kabul and kidnapped the US ambassador and the whole thing ended in a bloodbath with everybody dead, including the US ambassador.

Today’s situation is not new, it is pretty much the continuation of hundreds of years of history where power was taken by force. I would not call that track record one of good, stable and efficient government. Rather I would call it one of ethnic strife.

If you assert that Afghanistan in the past had an effective central government with actual, effective, control of the country, I am sorry, but you are going to have to provide some proof because it flies in the face of everything I have read from every source until now. Your turn.

I still don’t see where you are inventing this “They are not capable” idea.

Looking over your dates:
1919: an assassination is followed by the orderly accession of the leader’s son. No civil war. No change in the government. (Pretty much the way the U.S. functioned in 1865, 1881, 1901, and 1963, although their form of government was different.)

1929 - 1933: A civil war occurs, at the resolution of which, the surviving power rules for 40 years.

1973: The U.S.S.R. intervenes in the Afghani affairs to set up a “friendly” government.

1978: The Afghanis (possibly under the provocation of the U.S.) attempt to out the Soviet-backed government.

That is hardly a record of many governments falling because they “cannot rule” themselves. (Actually, the political situation in Afghanistan throughout that period was, indeed, a matter of successive reforms and retrenchments. However, in the midst of those shifting powers and alliances, Afghanistan moved consistently (if jerkily) toward greater democratic participation, more freedom for women, an independent press, and a host of other the “modern” traits. In addition, throughout the middle of the twentieth century, Afghanistan pulled itself ino the modern world (in terms of infrastructure, cities, airports, universities, etc.) without relying for aid from foreign governments, an accomplishment that is hardly the hallmark of an uncivilized or ungovernable people.

Again, compare their history to that of several South American countries. Compare their history in the last 150 years to that of Spain or Italy.

You have provided no evidence that the people of Afhanistan cannot rule their own country.

tomndebb, I guess everything is relative and “cannot govern themselves” is not a very precise definition and therefore subjective. To me any country which has been in a permanent state of civil war for a couple of decades and cannot get its act together pretty much qualifies, but I guess your definition might be different. Indeed I would include some African and South American countries in that definition. They most definitely don’t seem to be able to get their act together.

I am somewhat confused by your comparisons to Italy and Spain as I cannot see any parallel. I am not that knowledgeable about Italian history but I believe they were a bunch of separate kingdoms which united in the 19th century and, in a way, they would be the total opposite case: people who felt as belonging to one single people and wanted to unite. Also, they have had a substantial industrial base etc. (I know this because I know they made great cars even if I can’t name any). Anyway, I do not quite know how the comparison illustrates anything and I do not feel like doing a lot of homework on this particular point. If Italy meets my definition of “can’t govern themselves” then I volunteer to go there and explain the principles of good government to some beautiful Italian senorina while we share pizza and wine.

As an aside I am curious about something. You say Afghanistan built a modern infrastructure and it may well be true but I am ignorant of this. I recently read that Afghanistan practically has no infrastructure to the point that it has no railways. I found this so hard to believe. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

Rather than argue about what we each understand by “they cannot govern themselves” I would rather discuss what might be the solution right now. When I started this thread the news was that the Afghans could not come to any agreement and that they were squabbling and trying to get the most for themselves, not only in the negotiating table but in the field.

So let me try to refocus this discussion. Do you think it is a good idea for other countries to just get out and leave Afghans to themselves? If not, what kind of outside intervention would be best suited to insure the long term stability and governability of the country?

I do not think the rest of the world should just walk away and let the Afghanis fight it out. The current state of affairs is chaotic and abandoning them would simply mean that whoever had the most guns would take over (much as the Taleban did).

I think the current proposals within the U.N. provide the best chance. Offer multinational peace-keeping troops to keep the hostiles separated while offering incentives of cash and advisory personnel to help get the country rebuilt.

There will be a danger for many years that they will fall back into civil war, because the Islamist factions with their extreme views of Islam do make up a sizable minority of the country. That is not the same thing as saying that they are foredoomed to always needing someone to support them.

From the news reports, today, they meeting in Bonn has actually produced more agreement than was expected for this initial get together. (Which is not a claim that they are safely on the road to solidarity and peace.)

(As to Italy, it should be noted that Mussolini did not run for the public office of Duce and that the country was divided by factionalism between the Left and the Right for years. They have managed to get their country together, but it was not for a lack of divisiveness, chaos, and actual fighting between Fascists and Communists in the early to middle 20th century.)

I’ll start another thread on Kipling soon as I have a little time to really formulate some coherent thoughts. I would ask you to re-read White Man’s Burden or just about any of his Indian writing from the point of view of someone who loved India and thought English colonialists were incompetent and misguided. I think you can legitimately look at it from such a point of view (just as one might look at it as from a white racist POV).

Those people exist today as well, and I would call them misguided at best and racist at worst. What I want to underscore is that I don’t think Kipling was one of those people.

China Guy, I think a new thread might be a good idea, but I amy not be able to participate too much. Next week is finals and things are picking up, and then I’ll be going home and away from any reliable net connection.

On that front, I didn’t get back to this thread in time to post anything that wouldn’t just retread what Tomndebb said.

–John

Sailor: in some limited respects, I agree with you. If you are defining a stable nation as one with a strong central government, then Afghanistan has only intermittently qualified. It is, after all, a conquest state in origin, multi-ethnic and tribal, with a strong tradition of factionalism. Much like Burma/Myanmar, which was formed around the same time under roughly similar circumstances, or like any medieval state you care to mention, the degree of authority wielded over the periphery of the country fluctuated with the ability of the ruling sovereign. In Afghanistan, the Pashtun tribes taken as a whole have always wielded enormous political influence and have, more often then not, had a fair degree of internal autonomy.

That said, I think I am going to agree with tomndeb and Yue Han and say that you are overstating the case a bit. In the decades before the Soviet invasion ( even after the coup that removed Zahir Khan ), the state was showing real, if slow and intermittent, progress. Yes it was still desperately poor and undeveloped, with banditry and bloodfeuds in the backcountry. But a certain level of delicate stability had been reached between the central government and tribal factions, one that seemed functional for that society, if not optimal. I also agree that it was certainly more stable in this period than Burma, Southeast Asia in general, or any of a number of African or Latin American nations. Decades of Cold War proxy battles and internal social disruption have bred anarchy. But I see no reason, theoretically, that this can’t be repaired ( as a practical matter it might be iffy, but it has to be tried ). Certainly the exhausted people of Afghanistan seem more receptive than ever to an attempt.

At any rate, I think it is a moot point. I rather boringly agree once again with tomndeb that the current direction seems the best choice. While it may fail, IMHO your idea would have no chance of success. The Afghans are far too xenophobic to ever tolerate that kind of enforced, “outsider” regime. The reaction would be violent and sustained. Whether it would be successful in tossing out the “invaders” is academic. The continued violence alone ( and its attendant factionalism ) would be enough to prevent the society from stabilizing and modernizing.

Just my $.02.

Re: The Kipling Hijack - I’m a fan. The Jungle Books was my favorite piece of literature as a child. That said, while I do think that compared to his countrymen he was indeed a lot less racist than most, I also think it would be fair to label him with the milder perjorative of paternalist. He was not, to the best of my knowledge, in favor of devolving British rule in India, he did think said foreign ( and extractive )rule was better for the natives, and he did seem to regard native peoples as a little “childish” compared to the more serious and competent English.

A further $.02 :wink: .

  • Tamerlane

Well, I truly messed up this thread with such a poor OP. I was trying to present the issue for discussion but I guess I just made a mess of it.

Paternalistic might be an appropriate term for Kipling. I do not think it is valid to say he had to be either pro-British and anti-Asian or pro-Asian and anti-British. It is a false dichotomy. He believed in the superiority of British culture at the time (and I happen to agree with him) but he shows his appreciation for the locals and their culture. There is no contradiction in my view.

Many Americans today live in Asia and they retain a belief that western values make for better government and moral values but yet love the cultures and countries where they have settled. I cannot see any contradiction here. To call these people “racist” is simply stupid.

I have spent some time in China and I can say I love it and I can’t wait to return. At the same time I find many aspects of western culture clearly superior. There is no contradiction.

I had a boss who was in love with Mexico. Loved the food, the country, the people, etc. I think it came from having enjoyed good times there when he was younger. So he loved to go there and eat the food (which I do not particularly care for) and just spend time there. At the same time he believed it was a country with bad government which could learn a lot from the US. I cannot see why you cannot love two countries or two cultures at the same time.

Regarding Italy I am not quite knowledgeable except that I know they can’t run an airline and if the US marines would go into Milan and teach them a lesson by bombing their airport they would have my full support. Alitalia truly sucks and they need to be punished for what they did to me. :slight_smile:

Regarding Afghanistan, I was overstating the case just for the sake of argument. Obviously, I do not think making the men wear Burkhas is a viable solution. Not that I wouldn’t like to see it though… :wink: