The ethics committee is composed of old and young, male and female white people. There is an equal number of Democrats and Republicans. But let’s investigate further: Which part makes them unable to fairly investigate? Being old? Being white? Being male? Being Republican? Many of the women involved have already publically accused Franken and considering the nature of the accusations, I doubt questioning would lead to the potential trauma and humiliation that somebody like Anita Hill had to go through.
I’m not sure if Sen. Pat Leahy and Sen. Joe Manchin are testing the waters for Minority Leader Chuck Schumer or not.
It’s a common tactic for underlinings to float ideas in the press. If there’s push back, then the leaders hands are clean.
They may want to test the public reaction if they let Al stay.
I don’t know. We’ll find out in the next couple weeks. Manchin, Leahy say Franken shouldn't have had to resign before Ethics probe - CNNPolitics
There is no indication in the photo that he is actually touching her. His left hand is definitely not touching, as you can see space between his fingers and her. The right hand doesn’t seem to be touching either, given the apparent drop shadow and the lack of noticeable deformation of the clothing.
The photo was not originally released to the public. She claims he did it on purpose so she would see it as an attempt to humiliate her (which could count as sexual harassment), but this has not been shown to be true.
Without the touching, I cannot see the difference between this and those common college pass-out pranks. Are they things you should do? No. Do I want better out of my politicians? Definitely. Would I insist he resign if this photo was the only thing? Not at all.
There are people in this thread claiming that this is like SNL. The photograph is the only thing that resembles SNL. I’m pretty sure I remember other photos that had stuff like this in it. I’m not saying there’s nothing wrong with it. I am very sympathetic to the idea that you should not be used in such a joke if you are not aware of it. But I do not see it as worse than the actual sexual assault allegations.
I said this from the beginning. I said that it was the forced kiss that concerned me. The photo was too easily written off. I’m pretty sure that’s what these others in this thread are doing.
I’m sorry, but no amount of sarcasm will change that. If you want to argue that he is definitely touching with evidence from the picture, I’m fine with that. But, as far as I can tell, he is not, which makes the photo easily dismissed.
Or, at least, it would have been, if not for the other accusations.
Emphasis added. No further comment.
I don’t know if the Ethics Committee would have expelled Franken. He might have lost any seniority he had for committee assignments, but it’s very unusual for an expulsion to take place. He had the choice, though, and he chose resignation. If he reneges on that pledge, it will be even worse for him wrt to his standing in the party.
Yeah, several people have been “He’s getting run out of town because of one stupid picture” but that’s not what’s happening at all. The photo is just something tangible to look at. And I agree that he doesn’t seem to be actually touching her in it. Which doesn’t make it in good taste but also doesn’t make it assault.
I like Franken. I read his recent book and thought he had good things to say and was passionate about what he was doing. I was hoping to see him continue and would have liked seeing him enter the presidential race – if not to win then because I thought he could steer it in useful ways.
When the original story broke, it was the stages of grief: “Well, it’s he said/she said and he’s not actually touching her in that photo”, “She’s probably some Republican plant sent to save Moore and ruin the Democrats”, “Yeah, he should submit to an investigation and we’re all cool”…
…followed by several more accusations which made clear that this wasn’t a “Say you’re worry and put it behind you” sort of event. Enter grief and acceptance…
…“Wow, this sucks” and “You know, if we’re to be good people then this is probably how it needs to be”. Those other accusations with credible stories are what did this in. Trying to focus on a stupid and tasteless photo completely misses the point. I wouldn’t be surprised if part of the lack of pushback from Franken’s camp is the potential for three more stories to drop as soon as he says “Nah, I’m staying”.
I don’t about “unable” – I’d say “unlikely”. It’s got one woman out of six members. And the whole Senate would be involved to some degree, not just that committee.
From the political side, I think such an investigation would be far more harmful to the Democratic party, since it would extend the story for weeks or months and divert headlines from other mostly-Republican-driven horribleness. And I think it’s very unlikely that the committee would be more focused on fact-finding than politics, since it’s an inherently political body.
And from the moral side, I see little benefit (and a much greater possibility of harm) to pushing the accusers further into the spotlight, and I see a lot of benefit from having a very clear line and high standards for high office, such that gropers need not apply or be tolerated.
But it does make it harassment. Note the “emphasis added” part in my last post. Also, do we really want to get into a debate about whether or not he’s touching her in the photo? As I said in the other thread, it’s like the kid in the back seat of the car holding his finger 1/4" from his sister’s face and claiming “I’m not touching her!” after his mother tells him to stop touching his sister.
I’m concerned too that we’re losing an important voice in Congress. A guy who’s influence was just beginning to mature.
I’ve read his book and recognize that he’s very passionate about politics and wants to make a difference.
We need people like that to serve. People that want to make a difference and not simply grab power.
I feel a Ethics committee investigation and strong verbal censure would have been sufficient. That would have eliminated any further bad behavior.
Instead he’ll probably get another radio show and resume his career.
And you would say that the kid is being immature and stupid but not that he’s touching his sister or assaulting her. No one is really arguing that Franken wasn’t being immature and stupid in that photo.
Al’s replacement when he resigns just so happens to be a woman. If he stays, he’s reducing the number of women in the Senate. Not a good visual, so an added incentive to stay the course and get out of Dodge.
I would say he was harassing her, which was the original claim by that poster. People get busted for harassment, not just assault. I’m at a loss why you are ignoring that distinction even though I’ve pointed it out twice.
I’m at a loss why you’re litigating your conversation with another poster with me. If you want to argue what some other poster said, go argue it with that other poster. I’m not really interested in arguing for BigT by proxy.
What I, me, Jophiel, said was:
Now even if you want to make an argument that he was harassing her, it doesn’t change what I (me, Jophiel, this guy not the other guy) said: It’s not assault. That’s a relevant distinction to me – someone who has a case or two of harassment, I might be more inclined to say “investigate and reprimand” than someone engaged in physical assault. Just like I would react as a parent differently to someone being a PITA with “I’m not touching you” than someone actually pinching his sibling.
Sorry, but you did jump into the middle of that conversation. But if you really do want to get into a debate about whether the picture shows Franken touching her or not (it’s NOT clear what is actually happening), I would say that puts in a sad state of affairs. When I worked in corporate America, if I took a photo like that of me posing over a work colleague, I would have been fired. And that was 20 years ago, and it would not have mattered if I was touching her or if I was 1/4" away from touching her. And I would not have been talking about shadows and if she was wearing a flack jackets and whether or not I was “just joking”.
Seeing as how I’ve said “the photo isn’t the important part anyway” a few times now, I’ll pass on that offer.
A wise decision, even if I think it’s politically naive to say the photo isn’t important. Especially since his leaving was, I believe, more of a reaction to the politics of the situation than to the ethics.
I’m not convinced of that. I think it would have mattered where in corporate America you lived and who you worked for. And what the reaction would have been to that picture. If my wife, clearly not the norm perhaps, had woken up during that pic, would have said “stop being a jackass” and would have gone back to sleep. She would not have been scarred for life. Franken, was not your normal corporate type. He was a SNL alum.
My real worry is taking our social mores of December 2017 and holding people accountable for actions 20 or 30 years ago though that lens.
I’ll take drinking and driving. 20 years ago, a cop would ask you if you could make it home OK as quickly as he or she would have arrested you. What if we tossed every person who drank and drove 20 plus years ago out of Congress and your corporate America? We’d have a lot of jobs.
Harassment is also in the eye of the beholder as well. And increasingly jackass = harassment = assault.
Large Silicon Valley tech firm, and as a manager we were given mandatory training on sexual harassment.
Franken was a guy < 2 months from announcing his Senate run when that pic was taken. I think that trumps “SNL alum” in this case. He knew he would likely be running for the Senate, so he has only himself to blame for taking that picture. It wasn’t something he did 20 years before his Senate run.
Tina Smith is packing her bags and apartment shopping - and setting herself up for a reelection campaign. Dayton announced her a week ago. He’s leaving. If he wasn’t, that announcement would have been delayed until after the special election, and then the whole thing quietly dropped. To not leave would be really cruel to Dayton and Smith.
Oh, and Franken being handsy at the state fair was rumored before this. It didn’t shock anyone who’d been listing to DFL gossip.
I think we should be careful about using that type of evidence in cases like this. It sounds a lot like “she was known to have cast spells on people in the village. Burn the witch!!”
I’m not saying you are trying to offer that as evidence, but just hanging there like that it certainly could be read that way.